Retro Gamer issue 185

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Crusty Starfish
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Re: Retro Gamer issue 185

Post by Crusty Starfish » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:48 pm

Thanks for the lengthy reply Kieren :) We could get a really good conversation going here!

Just on the '3rd game' mentioned - Oh dear, I do hope Martin was wrong about Daemonsgate being the third planned Panther game.
An ambitious RPG, Imagitec Design hyped up to the Sega and Atari press, Lynx and Game Gear versions announced, screens shown etc.
An Amiga version also announced.
This was supposed to be Imagitec Design taking on Ultima at it's own game.
Only the PC version arrived and it was blighted by a poor interface,ludicrous inventory system and a combat system worse than the ancient AD+D title, Pool Of Radiance.
What should of been a promising RPG saw the player enduring tedious treks through towns which took an age and saw you engaging in the same conversations with the same NPC's again and again.
Throw in large maps which featured repeated environment features and your not looking at a title the Panther would of needed to take on Zelda and Phantasy Star on it's rival consoles.
Martin seems happy to reel off a list of formats games were apparently started for but has a tendency to gloss over the reasons they never appeared.
In the case of Daemonsgate, negative press and consumer reaction to the PC version would of most likely killed of other versions.
As it stands,unless Martin can find proof it was in development for Panther,it's sadly pure speculation. :o
I really must go back and re-read the Imagitec article. Martin Hooley's personal feelings towards Leonard Tramiel had already been expressed in the earlier RG feature on Imagitec Design. I assume he REALLY wan't to get his dislike for the man 'out there'!

Going back to my original post, did you play each version prior to describing how good they were and what was missing/included/added? I'm still baffled by the SNES not being slated, the PC version being better than the Jag version, the PC-Engine HU-Card/CDrom major differences... and the Jag version being sluggish with some horrible slowdown in 2 player mode.

You should do a 'from the forum' question thing for your articles. There would be some great questions to put to the likes of Shaun Mcclure & Martin Hooley.

Unfortunately the only system I can currently play this awesome game on is a MAME cab (or emulation on my PC) :( my PC Engine died long ago and not had a Jag for years.

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Crusty Starfish
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Re: Retro Gamer issue 185

Post by Crusty Starfish » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:54 pm

Making of Starion...

I really good read. Was a great game on my Speccy but having been a C64 owner too, I actually quite liked it on there too. :?

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The Laird
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Re: Retro Gamer issue 185

Post by The Laird » Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:56 am

Crusty Starfish wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:48 pm
Going back to my original post, did you play each version prior to describing how good they were and what was missing/included/added? I'm still baffled by the SNES not being slated, the PC version being better than the Jag version, the PC-Engine HU-Card/CDrom major differences... and the Jag version being sluggish with some horrible slowdown in 2 player mode.
I own the PC Engine, Mega Drive, Jag, Lynx and SNES versions, so I am quite familiar with all of those anyway. As I already said, there wasn't really enough space to go into detail on each version, this article was very much about the arcade original. Opinions are subjective of course but I don't find the Jag version that sluggish and don't think the SNES version is utterly horrible either.

There was an Atari ST version of Daemonsgate too, I would imagine that any Panther version would have been based on that. I won't go into here in detail and derail the thread too much but the guys from Imagitec absolutely HATE Daemonsgate and cringe every time it's mentioned. Many of them admit that they were well over their heads creating a game like that, didn't have the man power or resources to do it justice and in the end just released it to get it out the door, meaning it was far from what the finished article was supposed to be.

If you are interested in hearing more from Shaun McClure then I very much recommend picking up his book: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Video-Game-Dev ... un+McClure

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Crusty Starfish
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Re: Retro Gamer issue 185

Post by Crusty Starfish » Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:54 am

The Laird wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:56 am
Crusty Starfish wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:48 pm
Going back to my original post, did you play each version prior to describing how good they were and what was missing/included/added? I'm still baffled by the SNES not being slated, the PC version being better than the Jag version, the PC-Engine HU-Card/CDrom major differences... and the Jag version being sluggish with some horrible slowdown in 2 player mode.
I own the PC Engine, Mega Drive, Jag, Lynx and SNES versions, so I am quite familiar with all of those anyway. As I already said, there wasn't really enough space to go into detail on each version, this article was very much about the arcade original. Opinions are subjective of course but I don't find the Jag version that sluggish and don't think the SNES version is utterly horrible either.

There was an Atari ST version of Daemonsgate too, I would imagine that any Panther version would have been based on that. I won't go into here in detail and derail the thread too much but the guys from Imagitec absolutely HATE Daemonsgate and cringe every time it's mentioned. Many of them admit that they were well over their heads creating a game like that, didn't have the man power or resources to do it justice and in the end just released it to get it out the door, meaning it was far from what the finished article was supposed to be.

Need a new thread to discuss this stuff!
I'm more than a little confused by what you are saying here.
You say 'The guys from Imagitec absolutely hate Daemonsgate', but that's not the impression both it's creator and an artist on the project have given in previous interviews online.
Both admit the game was far too ambitious for the hardware at the time (it runs slowly even on a 486 PC), the project was blighted by a lack of funding, staff were taken off it to work on other projects and a lot of comprises were made to get it to retail and sadly it wasn't the game it's creator had hoped for..
But hate it? That's a curious term to use.
Julian Holtom:
Unseen64: Can you shed any unique / personal light on Daemonsgate by Imagec, which seems was planned as a trilogy (Dorovan’s Key, Nomads and Homecoming)? Key marketing aspect was that actions in 1 game would have implications in sequels, so kill an NPC in the 1st game i.e. ‘Barry pig-squealer’ and his family would come looking for revenge in the 2nd game (a concept years ahead of its time).
Jules: This game was by any standards, ambitious in scope and scale. We were trying to create a far more involved game world than any equivalent game had to offer at the time, and I expect the mechanics of which have only just been truly realised in these type of games in the last 5 years. The hardware, architecture, and coding capabilities coupled with time constraints meant it simply wasn’t possible to build the game as intended at that time, and I think as with all games, there were some significant compromises from the original brief in order to get the game finished.
Nigel kershaw GTW:
Can you shed any light on Daemonsgate, which I believe was planned as a trilogy (Dorovan’s Key, Nomads and Homecoming)? Key marketing aspect was that actions in 1 game would have implications in sequels, so kill an NPC in the 1st game i.e. ‘Barry pig-squealer’ and his family would come looking for revenge in the 2nd game (a concept years ahead of its time).
Which version/s was you involved in and did you have anything to do with the planned Lynx game?
Daemnosgate was my baby. I was hired specifically to create a computer RPG, and the whole thing grew from my fevered D&D obsessed teenage brain. I developed the world, the backstory and the game design pretty much single handedly. Not bad considering I had no idea how to go about making videogames when I started.
It had a difficult birth, hampered by a lack of funding at times, staff was often moved onto titles that could bring some cash into the company, but we got there in the end. While not perfect I think there were a lot of great ideas buried in there. I’d love to work on another RPG one day.
NOBODY HATED IT or cringed..

My fingers ache!

One other thing, I suggested in my op that you should do a 'from the forum' in advance of completing an interview - is this something you'd be up for? Cheers :)

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The Laird
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Re: Retro Gamer issue 185

Post by The Laird » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:59 am

We do a from the forum for In The Chair Interviews, not these Ultimate Guides and Making Ofs. There isn't really the space for them.

As for Daemonsgate, I can't really comment on other interviews. But I am part of an Imagitec Design group on Facebook and there is a running joke there of never mention Daemonsgate. Experiences and memories are obviously different for a lot of people but the majority there seem to think they wasted a lot of time on that project without ever seeing the intended/promised results.
Last edited by The Laird on Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

kiwimike
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Re: Retro Gamer issue 185

Post by kiwimike » Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:42 am

Looks a great issue, ordered straight away :)

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