Atari vs C64 // was: 8-Bit Computer Poll

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Best 8-Bit

ZX Spectrum
109
41%
Commodore 64
121
46%
Amstrad CPC 464
25
10%
BBC Micro
8
3%
 
Total votes: 263

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neuromancer
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Post by neuromancer » Tue May 22, 2007 11:02 am

Bub&Bob wrote:
markstclair2010 wrote: I suspect this poll was rigged.

Yesterday the C=64 was leading by ~12 votes.
Now suddenly less than twenty-four hours later, it's essentially a tie.

Somebody somewhere has cast ~12 votes under ~12 different aliases in order to boost the Spectrum.
But its pointless now - the poll was for the magazine which has already been published - Time to lock this wonderful thread?
Personally I hope the thread isn't locked, or at least the tech discussions are allowed to continue somewhere - I'm not into the 'my computer's better than yours' stuff (had enough of that 20 years ago) but the discussions are fascinating if you're into the hardware and coding aspects - for many of us this is as much a part of retro gaming as the playing of the games is.

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Post by markstclair2010 » Tue May 22, 2007 11:07 am

neuromancer wrote:But its pointless now - the poll was for the magazine which has already been published -
And what were the published results?

(Obviously the magazine tally would be slightly-earlier & different from the tally currently displayed at the top of this page.)

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Post by Bub&Bob » Tue May 22, 2007 11:13 am

markstclair2010 wrote:
neuromancer wrote:But its pointless now - the poll was for the magazine which has already been published -
And what were the published results?

(Obviously the magazine tally would be slightly-earlier & different from the tally currently displayed at the top of this page.)
Have you not received the mag yet? Don't want to spoil the surprise!
The dry fart for Barry MacDermot and all the cancer patients in the Glamorgan testicle ward

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Post by TMR » Tue May 22, 2007 11:14 am

markstclair2010 wrote:I owned a C128, and to be honest, it was just a C64 with some extra screenmodes. The 80-column mode was great for writing reports, but LOUSY for playing games (it was no better than IBM's CGA mode).
Nah, it's more like EGA than anything and certainly better than CGA; 640x200 with 16 colours for the C128 VDC against 320x200 at 4 colours. For gaming, the machine could have been used a lot more to be honest, i've got half a relatively pretty puzzle game going that runs on the VDC display but, because i'm working in an emulator (my poor C128D doesn't even start in 128 mode any more...) i don't know for certain if it'll actually run on a real machine... the emulation in VICE is terrible because the time taken to get data to and from the VDC RAM and 2MHz mode aren't emulated.

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Post by TMR » Tue May 22, 2007 11:20 am

neuromancer wrote:Personally I hope the thread isn't locked, or at least the tech discussions are allowed to continue somewhere - I'm not into the 'my computer's better than yours' stuff (had enough of that 20 years ago) but the discussions are fascinating if you're into the hardware and coding aspects - for many of us this is as much a part of retro gaming as the playing of the games is.
[Nods in agreement] very much so here as well; as M.J. Hibbert and the Validators said, the various 8- and 16-bit machines "made a generation who could code" and for some of us, creating games (in BASIC, machine code, compiled languages or game construction toos) was as much fun as playing 'em!

If the admins want to make a likkle place for us "geeks" to play so that other readers of the board don't keep complaining, i'm happy to hang around and make a nuisance of m'self on a regular basis. =-)

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Post by neuromancer » Tue May 22, 2007 11:31 am

TMR wrote:
neuromancer wrote:Personally I hope the thread isn't locked, or at least the tech discussions are allowed to continue somewhere - I'm not into the 'my computer's better than yours' stuff (had enough of that 20 years ago) but the discussions are fascinating if you're into the hardware and coding aspects - for many of us this is as much a part of retro gaming as the playing of the games is.
[Nods in agreement] very much so here as well; as M.J. Hibbert and the Validators said, the various 8- and 16-bit machines "made a generation who could code" and for some of us, creating games (in BASIC, machine code, compiled languages or game construction toos) was as much fun as playing 'em!

If the admins want to make a likkle place for us "geeks" to play so that other readers of the board don't keep complaining, i'm happy to hang around and make a nuisance of m'self on a regular basis. =-)
Absolutely in agreement here... a separate forum would be fine by me. I did try earlier to direct the techy discussions off this thread and into my 8 bit demo thread, but really it'd be good to have a dedicated hardware / coding forum (not just a thread)

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Post by Allas » Tue May 22, 2007 11:42 am

markstclair2010 wrote:
Allas wrote:Finally the most important computer in the 8bit history:
Image
Isn't the Atari 800 simply an Atari 5200 videogame console, albeit with a keyboard? The 5200 games were inferior to what the Colecovision could do.

(walks to closet to don flame-retardant clothes)

You are a little confused, Atari 800 was released in the market in December 1978, and the 5200 was released in 1982, and yes it's mainly a 800 with 16K (a 400 model). But came after the 800. And it's not true Colecovision is better the Atari 5200. Between 1982-1984, 5200 was the best hardware console and sells more units than Colecovision. Due to tha downfall of video games, had a reduced life in the market.

But it's sure you didn't know that C64 originally was going to be released as a console. Because of the fall of video games crisis, Commodore in a fast operation converted the console into a computer, added a keyboard, a hurried Basic, and the same plastic case of the VIC (with another color).

Finally people bought a improvised converted computer. Most of them didn't work fine, and had to be replaced.
---------
Allas

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Post by TMR » Tue May 22, 2007 12:05 pm

Allas wrote:But it's sure you didn't know that C64 originally was going to be released as a console. Because of the fall of video games crisis, Commodore in a fast operation converted the console into a computer, added a keyboard, a hurried Basic, and the same plastic case of the VIC (with another color).
Since consoles are usually considered far more powerful than home computers, having parts that were destined for that market in the C64 is hardly something you could consider a weakness...

The "hurried" BASIC, by the way, was the same as the VIC 20 has and that in turn is inherited from the PET; whilst it's not much good as a BASIC as such (you have to remember that Microsoft wrote it) it's certainly not rushed in any way specifically for the C64.
Allas wrote:Finally you bought a improvised converted computer. Most of them didn't work fine, and had to be replaced.
And it still thrashed the Atari in sales, how embarassing! =-)

The internals of the C64 never really changed until the C64C and even then it was purely to reduce the cost of manufacture further, after the first runs (which had issues with reliability but not from how they were designed as such) there were a lot less in the way of problems and, since i can't remember having more than a couple of DOA C64s (i have about twenty five and sold hundreds if not thousands more near the end of it's commercial lifespan, all tested before they left the shop) but my first 800XL had to go back along with a lot of others from the batch it was in, my thoughts on build quality might be at odds with yours. =-)

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Post by markstclair2010 » Tue May 22, 2007 12:14 pm

Allas wrote:But it's sure you didn't know that C64 originally was going to be released as a console. Because of the fall of video games crisis....
(1) The game crisis happened in 1983-84, not 1981 (when the 64 was developed). In fact, 1981-82 was the gaming industry's biggest year, so your timeline is completely OFF when you claim there was a crisis. (2) I still maintain Colecovision has better games than 5200 (Atari computer in a box)... at least in terms of graphics and sound. Look below. The Atari version looks like crap compared to Coleco:

[EDIT] [I used to be a *huge* Atari fan. And just now I was thinking - When did that change? It probably happened around the time when I mailed them $5 to renew my Atari Age subscription, but instead Atari decided to stop publishing the magazine.]

[Feeling abandoned by Atari and never getting my 5 dollars back, I spent ~2 years drifting aimlessly, until I turned to Commodore. First I bought a Plus/4. ----- And then Commodore actually gave me a FREE C=128 when I traded-in my Plus/4!!! Atari never gave me that kind of service. Instead Atari took my 5 bucks and ran... without any kind of apology or refund.]

Image
Image
neuromancer wrote:But its pointless now - the poll was for the magazine which has already been published -
And what were the published results? Obviously the magazine tally would be slightly-earlier & different from the tally currently displayed at the top of this page.

(As a participant of the poll, I certainly have a right to know the final results.)
Last edited by markstclair2010 on Tue May 22, 2007 12:43 pm, edited 20 times in total.

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Post by psj3809 » Tue May 22, 2007 12:19 pm

You'll have to buy the magazine to find out !

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Post by potatohead » Tue May 22, 2007 12:45 pm

IMHO, we should get a forum titled:

Advocacy

,or

Retro Computer & Console Advocacy.

Something like that. We can then hammer on one another at will and all engage in a little group thearapy!

To everyone here: Great community. I seriously enjoy the discussion and the generation who could code bit is spot freaking on. No matter what machine one had, getting it to do anything cool meant both understanding the hardware and doing some coding to make it all happen.

I've picked up an interesting little chip, called the Propeller. It's from Parallax (you can google that) and it's just the thing for that classic retro feel, but with modern hardware! It's a multi-processor, has 8 independant CPUs that all work together from a shared memory pool. (cogs and hubs)

I've been doing some coding on this guy and it's a lot of fun. Has 8 onboard video generators, timers, etc... Takes me right back and that's cool.

Anyway, back to retro gaming and the machines. I went back and read through this excellent thread. Lots of experiences, impressions, coding, tweaking, etc... Lots of things were possible. More things are possible today. IMHO, that puts the advocacy asped into context. Without all of us loving on these little old boxes, nothing new would be happening.

Why program something wonderful, if there is nobody to share it with right?

That in and of itself makes an advocacy forum worth while. At the very least, we would see many alphas in one place, all pushing for their machine hard. When / if somebody does something cool, there would be a place for it, that's all.

To the C64 people: Ok, I'll take back the PC bit. Did some thinking about that too. I still think the Atari is the better experience. That's not likely to change, but both experiences are not PC like. If anything, that's Apple!

(sits back to read with great interest)

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Post by Celebaglar » Tue May 22, 2007 1:19 pm

markstclair2010 wrote:
Allas wrote:But it's sure you didn't know that C64 originally was going to be released as a console. Because of the fall of video games crisis....
(1) The game crisis happened in 1983-84, not 1981 (when the 64 was developed). In fact, 1981-82 was the gaming industry's biggest year, so your timeline is completely OFF when you claim there was a crisis.

Actually, the story about the console hurriedly converted to a home computer sounds a lot like the Amiga story, not the C64. The Amiga was definitely developed as a games console, and the conversion to a home computer involved the bolting on of a version of BASIC (ironically, from Microsoft) and some fairly rushed operating system features to turn it into a desktop machine.

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Post by emkay » Tue May 22, 2007 2:51 pm

markstclair2010 wrote:
Isn't the Atari 800 simply an Atari 5200 videogame console, albeit with a keyboard? The 5200 games were inferior to what the Colecovision could do.

(walks to closet to don flame-retardant clothes)
No real sarcasm here ;-)

The real sarcasm was, when ATARI released the XE series and the 65XE, everybody was craving about new titles like "Rescue on Fractalus 2" , "Test Drive" or at least Games like this one:

Image

But ATARI really dared to release in 1987 Games like this one:

Image

What I'm thinking about this sound like *#%& .....

RAM was cheap, the machine was known.... why no "Dragon's lair", why no ..... anything.....
After 85 ATARI went $hit, if you know what i mean.
only good choice was to buy the rights of the lynx, but i guess, commodore would have done better selling this piece of great hardware.


:twisted:

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Post by TMR » Tue May 22, 2007 3:03 pm

emkay wrote:But ATARI really dared to release in 1987 Games like this one:
Holy crap... okay, i didn't realise Atari were knocking out stuff that was quite that primitive to be honest; ignoring the playability for a sec the third party stuff just leaves that for dead, doesn't it... i mean... put that next to Dropzone and... good grief.
emkay wrote:only good choice was to by the rights of the lynx, but i guess, commodore would have done better selling this piece of great hardware.
i keep taking pops at Commodore's marketing people but i've always felt it justified; Commodore's strength (for the 8-bits at least) was always R&D, marketing the hardware was always a lower priority (partly due to Jack Attack favouring the engineers apparently, just read a free chapter of Rise and Fall of Commodore and going to have to buy that book) and software support... that happened to other people basically, Commodore supplied the canvas and let everyone else bring the paints. =-)

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Post by neuromancer » Tue May 22, 2007 3:37 pm

markstclair2010 wrote:
neuromancer wrote:But its pointless now - the poll was for the magazine which has already been published -
And what were the published results? Obviously the magazine tally would be slightly-earlier & different from the tally currently displayed at the top of this page.

(As a participant of the poll, I certainly have a right to know the final results.)
I didn't write that :shock: and I don't agree that the poll is pointless just because the magazine's on sale :wink:
Last edited by neuromancer on Tue May 22, 2007 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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