What happens when you die?

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r0jaws
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Re: What happens when you die?

Post by r0jaws » Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:44 pm

markopoloman wrote:
r0jaws wrote:@Confused, rather than argue every point with you again, I suggest you read Antiriad2097's post carefully.

You are obviously an entrenched anti-evolutionist and would rather believe a book of fairy stories with no evidence whatsoever than a working theory which has at least some evidence, and the hard work and serious research of thousands of scientists.
Your arguments are weak, and ill researched and it is a real shame that you are likely to die believing this childish rubbish. What is worse, however, is that you are likely to infect others with this wilful ignorance.
Whilst I don't agree with Confused's view on this subject, I think having a proper dig at him for his beliefs are a little ott there. I really don't like talking Religion on here as there is always a danger of having a real effect on someone - and if taken the wrong way, could cause a forum member to feel uncomfortable being here. He has his views and it is highly unlikely to change them, I have my views and am unlikely to change them unless something new can be 100% proved - but at least I am open to that. Also, being an Orthodox Christian, I don't view myself as a Bible Christian like a Born Again would - r0jaws, you may view the content as fairy stories, I do not, although I am sensible enough to realise the content is not exact and has been translated loads of times, but that doesn't mean those things (in the New Testament) didn't happen.
As you pointed out though, Antiriad's post is good and I agree with pretty much all of it.
Much as I respect you Mark, I'm afraid that if Confused didn't want his views ridiculed, and his beliefs scrutinised, he should not have posted them on an open forum on the internet.

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Antiriad2097
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Re: What happens when you die?

Post by Antiriad2097 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:52 pm

I had a physics teacher in secondary school who was a right bible basher, he'd constantly have a go at us for taking the lord's name in vain, got really uptight about it. Don't know if he was a creationist since that wasn't a term I was familiar with (I just assumed all religious people believed it all), but it wouldn't surprise me.

I always thought it was odd that a man of science could be religious, but now I realise it's more common than I thought and doesn't always contradict belief. Physics is an odd one though, since it encompasses some of the anti-creationist theories. I think it's that particular combination that struck me, but I suppose a creator can create with a bang.

I'm not sure the human mind can comprehend pre-creation, an absolute nothingness, and the concept of nothing including a creator seems even more incomprehensible to me. I assume that creationists work on the basis that pre-bang, first came the creator.

That makes some sense to me, that some unknown force created things. What I don't quite get is why religions have adopted an attitude that this unknown force is sentient and not just interested or aware of us, but actively takes care of us. In my mind, if there were a creator, we'd be insignificant to it (if it were, however unlikely, sentient). It seems something of a leap that insignificant human life is the goal of creation. That's quite an ego to think that way when even on our planet there are millions of creatures and so many other amazing things in the observed universe.
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Re: What happens when you die?

Post by pratty » Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:35 pm

For anyone interested, here is an astro-theological interpretation of the Biblical creation, from Thomas Burgoyne's Light of Egypt:

The simple story of creation begins at midnight, when the Sun has reached the lowest point in the arc—Capricorn. All Nature then is in a state of coma in the Northern Hemisphere, it is winter time, solar light and heat are at their lowest ebb; and the various appearances of motion, etc., are the Sun's passage from Capricorn to Pisces, 60 degrees, and from Pisces to Aries, 30 degrees, making 90 degrees, or one quadrant of the circle. Then begin in real earnest the creative powers, it is spring time.

The six days are the six signs of the northern arc, beginning with the disruptive fires of Aries. Then, in their order, Taurus, Gemini, Cancer, Leo, Virgo; then Libra, the seventh day and the seventh sign, whose first point is opposite Aries and is the opposite point of the sphere, the point of equilibrium, equal day and equal night, it is autumn. It is the sixth sign from Aries, the first creative action, and so the sixth day following the fiery force, wherein God created the bi-sexual man. See Genesis, 1:5-27: "So God created man in His own image; in the image of God created He him, male and female created He them."

It is the seventh, or day of the Lord (man), the climax of material creation and Lord of all living things, and be rests in the blissful Garden of Eden. This seventh day and seventh sign is the concealed sacred Libra the perfect union of the sexes. Then comes the fall from Libra, through Scorpio, and banishment from the Garden of Eden. That is the victory of Satan, or Winter, over Summer, etc.
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Re: What happens when you die?

Post by fredghostmaster » Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:56 pm

I went to church as a kid and whilst I never really felt part of it, I never really questioned the truth of it either. It was only as I got older, it began to strike me that what I had been taught was pretty ridiculous when you thought about it. I have family and friends who are religious and I don't feel the need to challenge their views even though I find it incredible that grown adults can hold such beliefs. I don't remember anything before I was born, it was just a nothingness, a state I expect to return to when my time is up.

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Re: What happens when you die?

Post by Shinobi » Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:18 pm

Matt a massive thanks for the reply its all making a lot more sense, rather then people saying Evolution is true because there opinion is fact.. I have all Richard Dawkins Audiobooks but I find him a bit toffee nosed when he speaks with his English Accent.. To me you explained in a way that's a lot easier to understand.. I also have Alice Roberts book I find it hard reading and the 6 part BBC documentary where we came from was a lot easier to Digest
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Re: What happens when you die?

Post by markopoloman » Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:24 pm

r0jaws wrote: Much as I respect you Mark, I'm afraid that if Confused didn't want his views ridiculed, and his beliefs scrutinised, he should not have posted them on an open forum on the internet.
Open forum or not, there were probably a few nicer ways of saying what you said! It doesn't bother me that people don't believe and I don't really care what people think of my beliefs - it's just that I do care for other people - with faith or without it. If possible I try to see the good in people and although his views are in my (and yours and most others here) wrong, it is still his personal view - he is still a well known, much liked member of this community...
Other posts have argued against his points quite nicely - just saying that maybe your post was a little ott from a man that I've slept in the same room as and is more than capable of running a response in a slightly less harsh way :wink: :mrgreen:
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Re: What happens when you die?

Post by RetroBob » Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:27 pm

I wouldn't have put it quite like r0jaws but I agree with him. Kids have a natural sense of wonder that shouldn't be polluted with superstitious nonsense. There is no such thing as a Muslim child or a Christian child, only religious parents - let kids make up their own mind about which story they want to believe, if any.
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Re: What happens when you die?

Post by pratty » Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:54 pm

I think we're probably all guilty of trying to make people see things our way sometimes, not just about religion, asserting one's view as the correct view is an easy trap to fall into. But I find pretty much most non-believers only try to convince people they're right during the actual debate, eg when it comes up in conversation such as this thread.

What I find more objectionable is the way religions actively go out to convert people, it's seems quite systematic in some cases, if not actually economic. The Jehovah's Wtinesses and Mormon's especially that I've seen are almost like salesmen, essentially trying to sign up new recruits.

As far as any of us can sure we're only here once, life is too short to spend it within the confines of a religion at the behest of someobody else. I wish the religions would let the 'product' sell itself more, and let people find religion themselves if they're so inclined.
fredghostmaster wrote:I have family and friends who are religious and I don't feel the need to challenge their views even though I find it incredible that grown adults can hold such beliefs.
I think most non-believers feel this way too. Generally Christianity and religion is not only tolerated in society, but respected. If you wanted a character reference for a job then getting one from a man (or woman) of the cloth would probably look good to an employer, regardless of their beliefs.

And yet, despite their beliefs sounding like fairy stories to many people, it's considered bad form to make fun of them. A priest, a man or woman that dresses like a wizard and believes in gods, devils, angels, spirits and miracles etc, isn't considered a figure of fun.

Is that simply down to the numbers? The more believers there are the more plausable the beliefs are considered to be, and the more their beliefs are to be respected, tolerated and protected. On the other hand more minority views seem fair game for ridicule. Even Christians will mock a man like David Icke for entertaining the idea of humanoid repitlians, whilst they themselves firmly believe Satan appeared to Eve as a talking serpent.
Last edited by pratty on Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Sokurah
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Re: What happens when you die?

Post by Sokurah » Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:06 pm

Shinobi wrote:Nobody knows what happens when you die and it can't be proven as its a one way trip! Saying there's no afterlife because it's my opinion and my opinion is fact! Therefore my opinion is more valid than others, this applies to any and every subject I or anyone else's makes you look an utter utter utter utter wally!! Not to mention totally disrespectful to other people!!
The title of the thread is a question; "What happens when you die?"

There weren't any parameters or rules attached to that question so I answered with my opinion. I'm entitled to that. Calling it 'fact' is all on you.

I believe, that if you think there IS an afterlife, then you're as big a wally as you call me. But the thing is that I don't really care what you believe in - if you belive in an afterlife then good for you - then I hope for you there is one, or that you at least find some comfort in believing there is. Why wouldn't I want our souls to go on? (although for what reason I don't know - it's not like anyone can remember their past lives anyway...and those say they can are ususally looked upon like tossers by the other 99.999% of the population). It's a nice thought though...I just don't believe in it. Yeah, I'm an atheist.

I also believe that there is nothing to believe in but...a thought. God doesn't exist. He's just a nice idea. That doesn't mean it's stupid to believe in him - clearly the thought of him gives some people peace and brings meaning to their lives, so I'm not dismissing that, but I just think that those who believe on God either needs something to believe in (which is fine if that brings them happiness)...or they're brainwashed.

And don't give me any garbage about being "disrespectful to other people" just because I dismiss the notion of an afterlife, because by that logic I should feel offended by everyone who believes in God or any other deity. But I don't - I just don't care what they think. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion about something and if you don't agree you just need to shake it off and get on with your life.

And I'm certainly not going to bring up carbon dating or evolution like others because that has NO relevance to the subject.

So, as you don't really have more of an answer to this than I do you're not really an authority to call my out on my opinion.
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Re: What happens when you die?

Post by c0nfu53d » Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:25 am

markopoloman wrote:
r0jaws wrote: Much as I respect you Mark, I'm afraid that if Confused didn't want his views ridiculed, and his beliefs scrutinised, he should not have posted them on an open forum on the internet.
Open forum or not, there were probably a few nicer ways of saying what you said! It doesn't bother me that people don't believe and I don't really care what people think of my beliefs - it's just that I do care for other people - with faith or without it. If possible I try to see the good in people and although his views are in my (and yours and most others here) wrong, it is still his personal view - he is still a well known, much liked member of this community...
Other posts have argued against his points quite nicely - just saying that maybe your post was a little ott from a man that I've slept in the same room as and is more than capable of running a response in a slightly less harsh way :wink: :mrgreen:
To be honest and to be fair to r0jaws, I asked for questions, and told people not to hold back - I wont be offended. Its the only way to get a frank and honest discussion.

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Re: What happens when you die?

Post by psj3809 » Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:05 pm

At the end of the day none of us know for sure. Religious people might be right, they might be totally wrong (as theres no proof what they believe in is true), non-believers think one thing, again they cant prove it either.

Just had some jehovas at my door, did the usual 'if there was a god why would my best mates wife get cancer when she was 6 months pregnant' (totally true by the way). I get the usual responses, mostly 'its a test from god' type of crap. Just find it insulting as anything. Again i might be religious or give things a chance if things like that didnt happen. If there is a god stuff like that simply wouldnt happen.

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Re: What happens when you die?

Post by Antiriad2097 » Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:27 pm

Why not? Why does a god have to care about your mate's wife. One person out of millions, out of millions of species, from millions of planets. She is, to a god, insignificant.

And does a god require the power to heal from afar? Jeebus performed healing, but he was up close and personal.

What if there's a creator god, but it isn't as all seeing as the book suggests? It might not even be aware of one individual's illness, considering the aforementioned scale of significance when observing things.

Maybe the creator isn't perfect and left a few bugs in the evolutionary code. Every coder does it, but most aren't critical. Overall, a few of us having shorter lives maybe is within the parameters of the code? Maybe Jeebus was just a quick patch or occasional virus scan.

No disrespect to the affected party, but you used the example so continued.
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c0nfu53d
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Re: What happens when you die?

Post by c0nfu53d » Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:54 pm

Antiriad2097 wrote:Why not? Why does a god have to care about your mate's wife. One person out of millions, out of millions of species, from millions of planets. She is, to a god, insignificant.

And does a god require the power to heal from afar? Jeebus performed healing, but he was up close and personal.

What if there's a creator god, but it isn't as all seeing as the book suggests? It might not even be aware of one individual's illness, considering the aforementioned scale of significance when observing things.

Maybe the creator isn't perfect and left a few bugs in the evolutionary code. Every coder does it, but most aren't critical. Overall, a few of us having shorter lives maybe is within the parameters of the code? Maybe Jeebus was just a quick patch or occasional virus scan.

No disrespect to the affected party, but you used the example so continued.
He dosen't "have" to care. But He does. Proving that is difficult and explaing why God lets bad things happen to good people is even harder. To say God is testing you everytime is not exactly right. In truth there are many possible reasons.

As for healing this site has some examples which seem to be genuine http://www.is-there-a-god.info/clues/he ... cles.shtml Also seems to be a good resorce to answer other tough questions but I haven't had chance to read though the site.

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Devious
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Re: What happens when you die?

Post by Devious » Tue May 29, 2018 4:47 pm

boggyb68 wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2009 8:31 pm
Never mind about religion and dieing... I want to know:

If a tree falls down in a forest and there is no-one around to hear it does it make a noise?

Always intrigued me that one...

B.
For the answer, ask your self whether a person on the other side of the world from yourself makes a sound when they are singing loudly, whether or not you're there to hear it or are fast asleep.

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oldtimer
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Re: What happens when you die?

Post by oldtimer » Wed May 30, 2018 6:56 pm

Fook me, this is one of Krustys threads!!!
ATARI....There can be only one !!!!!!!

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