Atari vs C64 // was: 8-Bit Computer Poll

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Best 8-Bit

ZX Spectrum
109
41%
Commodore 64
121
46%
Amstrad CPC 464
25
10%
BBC Micro
8
3%
 
Total votes: 263

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RetroRik
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Post by RetroRik » Tue May 08, 2007 5:09 pm

neuromancer wrote:
RetroRik wrote: Lets turn this discussion into a brainiac type of test.

Lets drop a ZX Spectrum and a C64 from 3 metres and see which one still works.. :lol:

RIK
Great idea - can someone organise this and post an avi of it!


I bet the Speccy would bounce with that rubber keyboard. :lol:

Regards

RIK
Image

oswald
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Post by oswald » Tue May 08, 2007 5:15 pm

Matt_B wrote: I guess things are always going to be a little subjective when it comes to artwork, but with similar pixel densities and palette sizes, there's not really a huge amount in it between the Spectrum and C64. You're just a little bit less restricted by colour clash on the latter, although by no means free of it entirely.
the speccy palette is basically 8 colors each with 2 brightnesses which hardly differs, while the c64 has 16 truly individual colors.

"little bit less restricted" ? well this is a stock gfx mode, check what that little bit means:

Image

with some trickery we can get very close to 160x200x16. which means 2 totally free color for each byte, one fix color for each char, and one fix color for the whole screen. the latter may be turned into one fix color / line.

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neuromancer
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Post by neuromancer » Tue May 08, 2007 5:15 pm

Opa-Opa wrote:
neuromancer wrote:
RetroRik wrote: Lets turn this discussion into a brainiac type of test.

Lets drop a ZX Spectrum and a C64 from 3 metres and see which one still works.. :lol:

RIK
Great idea - can someone organise this and post an avi of it!
Erm.. This is a no brainer... Spectrum 48k rubber keyboard with its slimline black case or a CBM64 bloody great lump of brittle plastic with a keyboard that comprises of moving parts... I know which one my moneys on :)
no-brainer, maybe, but I still want to see it!

oswald
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Post by oswald » Tue May 08, 2007 5:22 pm

most likely both computers would survive, technology was more robust back then.

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neuromancer
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Post by neuromancer » Tue May 08, 2007 5:36 pm

oswald wrote:most likely both computers would survive, technology was more robust back then.
Right now I want to try that test with two of my pc's at work - naffing SQL scripts causing me serious grief, with a deadline looming large!

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MikeHaggar
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Post by MikeHaggar » Tue May 08, 2007 5:39 pm

Try DROP TABLE... Always works ;)

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neuromancer
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Post by neuromancer » Tue May 08, 2007 5:44 pm

MikeHaggar wrote:Try DROP TABLE... Always works ;)
that looked like a tempting option, but it turned out to be a simple problem: I forgot to encode the script with UCS-2 Little Endian...

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Matt_B
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Post by Matt_B » Tue May 08, 2007 5:58 pm

oswald wrote:the speccy palette is basically 8 colors each with 2 brightnesses which hardly differs, while the c64 has 16 truly individual colors.
No, by that score the C64 has just nine individual colours: Five shades of grey (including black and white); two shades each of red, green and blue; and one each of yellow, cyan, brown, orange and purple. Four of these are clumped very close in the colour wheel between yellow and red, which is why C64 pictures tend towards the brown as you can blend a lot better in that area.

Since the Spectrum has a more evenly distributed palette it's much more suited to vividly coloured pictures than the C64, which is something that I'd hope the pictures I posted up illustrate.
with some trickery we can get very close to 160x200x16. which means 2 totally free color for each byte, one fix color for each char, and one fix color for the whole screen. the latter may be turned into one fix color / line.
Yes, you can trade off half the resolution and go from a limit of two colours per character square to four instead.

Personally, I'd rate the Amstrad CPC's mode 0 as more capable as it can do 160x200x16 without any restrictions at all and has a broader palette too. That said, I'd say the gap between all four machines in the poll is sufficiently narrow that artistic talent is always going to be the major factor in which has the better looking graphics.

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savva0122
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Post by savva0122 » Tue May 08, 2007 6:07 pm

Late to this debate (been away)

C64 gets my vote, was best machine in almost every way for me

Getting a bit fond of the old Speccy in my old age though, can see its appeal now, although wouldn't have pissed on a burning one 20 yrs ago!!!

oswald
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Post by oswald » Wed May 09, 2007 2:38 am

Matt_B wrote:
oswald wrote:the speccy palette is basically 8 colors each with 2 brightnesses which hardly differs, while the c64 has 16 truly individual colors.
No, by that score the C64 has just nine individual colours: Five shades of grey (including black and white); two shades each of red, green and blue; and one each of yellow, cyan, brown, orange and purple. Four of these are clumped very close in the colour wheel between yellow and red, which is why C64 pictures tend towards the brown as you can blend a lot better in that area.

Since the Spectrum has a more evenly distributed palette it's much more suited to vividly coloured pictures than the C64, which is something that I'd hope the pictures I posted up illustrate.
with some trickery we can get very close to 160x200x16. which means 2 totally free color for each byte, one fix color for each char, and one fix color for the whole screen. the latter may be turned into one fix color / line.
Yes, you can trade off half the resolution and go from a limit of two colours per character square to four instead.

Personally, I'd rate the Amstrad CPC's mode 0 as more capable as it can do 160x200x16 without any restrictions at all and has a broader palette too. That said, I'd say the gap between all four machines in the poll is sufficiently narrow that artistic talent is always going to be the major factor in which has the better looking graphics.

The c64 has 9 different brightnesses, thats somewhat more variety than speccys 4 (?). on the colorwheel you are right the c64 has 8 hues, and the rest is greys.


"Since the Spectrum has a more evenly distributed palette it's much more suited to vividly coloured pictures than the C64, which is something that I'd hope the pictures I posted up illustrate."

Your colors are like watching TV with saturation on the MAX, in fact all colors are maxxed out which makes for the cheapo average speccy argument: "the c64 colors are washed out, not vivid" Indeed, when watching colors with max saturation all the time, suddenly the real word becomes 'washed out'. your colors are bleeding off the screen, also they are the "coders'" rgb colors noone with a sense for gfx wants to paint with.


"Yes, you can trade off half the resolution and go from a limit of two colours per character square to four instead."

Helo ?? have your read my lines ?? we can do on each character line 2 totally individual colors then there is one more color can be used thats fix for the char and one more color can be used but its fix for the whole screen. thats almost like totally freely chosable colors anywhere.



here's a 320x200 pic for you (no interlace, true 320x200):

Image

you see we can come up with new soft modes even after 2000, while you are struggling with the same one mode since the beginnings :)

let us compare:

Image
Image

another 320x200 pic:

Image


160x200 on c64:

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

as you see the c64 colors are absolutely vivid and can be mixed in much more freely than speccy ones.[/img]

psj3809
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Post by psj3809 » Wed May 09, 2007 3:06 am

Think you may have to edit one of those pictures out ! If theres uproar about semi-nude lasses in the mag then the PC brigade wont like one of those pictures !

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The Master
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Post by The Master » Wed May 09, 2007 4:21 am

oswald wrote: Image
BOOBIES!!!!

WHAHEY!!!

Just when this thread was starting to get boring... :)

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Matt_B
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Post by Matt_B » Wed May 09, 2007 4:39 am

oswald wrote:The c64 has 9 different brightnesses, thats somewhat more variety than speccys 4 (?). on the colorwheel you are right the c64 has 8 hues, and the rest is greys.
The Spectrum actually has 16 different brightnesses i.e. each colour has a different luminosity. The two blacks are very close together so that they're indistinguishable on many TV sets though, so it's often quoted as 15.

It was designed this way, so you'd still get distinct images on a black and white TV set, which were more commonplace in kids bedrooms in the early 80s.
Your colors are like watching TV with saturation on the MAX, in fact all colors are maxxed out which makes for the cheapo average speccy argument: "the c64 colors are washed out, not vivid" Indeed, when watching colors with max saturation all the time, suddenly the real word becomes 'washed out'. your colors are bleeding off the screen, also they are the "coders'" rgb colors noone with a sense for gfx wants to paint with.
Meh. I play games for all manner of computers, not just the Spectrum, as you might have noticed by my comments so far in this thread. You're the one who appears to be wedded to a particular machine.

The C64 is uncommon amongst the early 8-bits in having such a loaded palette though as just about everything else I can think of went for a more even spread. Whilst it certainly makes C64 screenshots look rather distinctive, I don't think you'll find it is universally seen as a good thing.
Helo ?? have your read my lines ?? we can do on each character line 2 totally individual colors then there is one more color can be used thats fix for the char and one more color can be used but its fix for the whole screen. thats almost like totally freely chosable colors anywhere.
Almost maybe, but still not totally. :P
as you see the c64 colors are absolutely vivid and can be mixed in much more freely than speccy ones.
I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with those pictures or even if you understand what vivid means, so...

From Dictionary.com:
Vivid: 1. strikingly bright or intense, as color, light, etc
Since we agree that the Spectrum has more bright and intense colours, it is therefore more suited to vivid pictures.

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Opa-Opa
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Post by Opa-Opa » Wed May 09, 2007 4:42 am

This is the same argument that the CPC followers bring up everytime the question of which machine is better comes up.

This is RetroGAMER the question is surely about which machine is the better for gaming. We don't care that you can use a spreadsheet on your CPC or if your Atari/CBM can display a nice static picture.

Which machine do we think has the better GAMES...?

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OriginalJax
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Post by OriginalJax » Wed May 09, 2007 5:02 am

This is like my childhood playground experience, zapped forward (ahem) years, and with a bunch of clout to backup the arguments!!!
WTF!? The 80's are GONE!? And they're never coming BACK!?

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