Why Isn't Emulation Good Enough??

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FatTrucker
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Re: Why Isn't Emulation Good Enough??

Post by FatTrucker » Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:24 pm

Jay wrote:Can you run an emulator on PC hooked up to an LCD TV and have perfectly smooth horizontal scrolling? I tried a C64 emulator ages ago this way and the scrolling on Uridium was horrendous. I didn't put a great deal of effort into it though, so perhaps changing some settings could have sorted it.
As a matter of interest I just tried running Uridium with the latest Winvice on my PC CRT and downstairs on the LCDTV (connected via VGA), the one downstairs is running on a completely different PC too, so its not hardware dependent, neither shows any visible stutter or tearing. I didn't tinker with any of the video settings so this was the latest Vice running at whatever its default video settings are. I have to say though that you do notice tearing on some Mame games when running on the LCDTV if you have Triple Buffering turned off. With it enabled it seems to eliminate it completely.

Re the controls thing, its almost certainly to do with the way the controls encoder is set up. However if its only evident on some games it could also be to do with a disparity with the speed the game is being emulated at and the hardware the emulator is running on. There are also various throttling options in various emulators that can cause control lag when turned on.
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Re: Why Isn't Emulation Good Enough??

Post by Spector » Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:42 pm

Antiriad2097 wrote: Personally I want at least 5 systems - a twin stick, an analogue stick, a trackball, a wheel and a yoke. And maybe a spinner. And perhaps a rotational stick. And... ;)
...one with a set of handlebars so you can play PAPERBOY!!

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Re: Why Isn't Emulation Good Enough??

Post by Antiriad2097 » Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:55 pm

Spector wrote:
Antiriad2097 wrote: Personally I want at least 5 systems - a twin stick, an analogue stick, a trackball, a wheel and a yoke. And maybe a spinner. And perhaps a rotational stick. And... ;)
...one with a set of handlebars so you can play PAPERBOY!!
You may jest, but that would be well suited to other bike racing games and near perfect for Enduro Racer.
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Re: Why Isn't Emulation Good Enough??

Post by FatTrucker » Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:02 pm

Antiriad2097 wrote:
Spector wrote:
Antiriad2097 wrote: Personally I want at least 5 systems - a twin stick, an analogue stick, a trackball, a wheel and a yoke. And maybe a spinner. And perhaps a rotational stick. And... ;)
...one with a set of handlebars so you can play PAPERBOY!!
You may jest, but that would be well suited to other bike racing games and near perfect for Enduro Racer.
Several people have converted Radikal Biker uprights to Mame for exactly that purpose. :D
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Re: Why Isn't Emulation Good Enough??

Post by Pixiu » Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:46 pm

Jay wrote:I've not yet seen a PC monitor perform this well enough for my liking. Perhaps your TV handles 50/60hz over VGA unlike my PC monitor?
Yeah, most likely his telly can display 50hz. What's your PC monitor locked to? 60hz? Certainly no way you're going to be able to view 50hz scrolling at its proper smoothness on that. And the faster the scrolling, the more noticeable the problem will be. I have the same problem with my LCD monitor.

Alternatively, a telly/monitor that can refresh at 100hz should be able to display 50hz PAL games smoothly due to 100:50 being a whole number ratio.
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Re: Why Isn't Emulation Good Enough??

Post by C=Style » Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:57 pm

Pixiu wrote:
Jay wrote:I've not yet seen a PC monitor perform this well enough for my liking. Perhaps your TV handles 50/60hz over VGA unlike my PC monitor?
Yeah, most likely his telly can display 50hz. What's your PC monitor locked to? 60hz? Certainly no way you're going to be able to view 50hz scrolling at its proper smoothness on that. And the faster the scrolling, the more noticeable the problem will be. I have the same problem with my LCD monitor.

Alternatively, a telly/monitor that can refresh at 100hz should be able to display 50hz PAL games smoothly due to 100:50 being a whole number ratio.
Ah but we are not dealing with whole and specific numbers here, so the old 100hz trick while a hell of a lot better, still judders every now and then. For me the best option was to run C64 and Amiga on Xbox, seriously nothing else has compared to it on PC, it's user friendly, has perfect emulation and of course runs at 50hz in RGB, liquid smooth scrolling. There is an option to run the emulator in 50hz on Vice but it all depends if your video card allows it to run in 50hz I think, and mine never would allow me to for some weird reason.
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Re: Why Isn't Emulation Good Enough??

Post by Pixiu » Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:29 pm

C=Style wrote:
Pixiu wrote:Alternatively, a telly/monitor that can refresh at 100hz should be able to display 50hz PAL games smoothly due to 100:50 being a whole number ratio.
Ah but we are not dealing with whole and specific numbers here, so the old 100hz trick while a hell of a lot better, still judders every now and then.
You mean like cases where the monitor's 100hz refresh is actually 100.15 or some other fraction? Yeah, that can be a problem.

I used to run Winvice on a 100hz CRT monitor. Maybe it was exactly 100hz, as I remember it as moving at proper smoothness in fullscreen + vsync. Might have had a tiny bit of blur though.

I agree that running it on a 50hz display is the ideal solution though, either via a graphics card that supports outputting to a 50hz display, or via xbox. Personally I would recommend the xbox option to all.
There is an option to run the emulator in 50hz on Vice but it all depends if your video card allows it to run in 50hz I think, and mine never would allow me to for some weird reason.
Not sure what you mean here. In PAL mode, winvice is always going to run at 50hz (assuming no dropped frames due to underpowered PC). It's the graphics card + monitor not refreshing at 50hz that causes the problem. Was it some kind of option to try to force your graphics card to 50hz?
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Re: Why Isn't Emulation Good Enough??

Post by C=Style » Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:44 pm

What happened is I tried to output WinVice to my HDTV from my netbook via HDMI. What happened is I got the dreaded 60hz judder no matter the setting in Vice. I went into my gfx card option in Nvidia control panel and could not shift my card down to 50hz. No matter what, it was outputting at 60hz as my TV was saying so. So I Dunno.

As for the 100hz thing. I read over at Lemon64 that the C64 outputted at around 49.97hz or something like that. Which meant that doubling up to 100hz exactly didn't fit the criteria. there was a patch that addressed this (for WinUAE too) and it really helped but for me I could still see juddering, just less frequesnt and along with some unwanted screen tearing too, which made it a 'no go'.

I never pursued it further, it was just an experiment as I've always been happy with the Xbox versions.
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Re: Why Isn't Emulation Good Enough??

Post by Pixiu » Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:50 pm

Ah, right. Interesting. I can't rule out the possibility that my memory of perfect smoothness at 100hz is flawed. It may be that the huge improvement over how it looked at 60 or 75hz has rose tinted things.

In fact, I also switched to vice on xbox on a 50hz display and never looked back. :)
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Re: Why Isn't Emulation Good Enough??

Post by C=Style » Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:01 pm

What version of Vice64x do you use by the way? I tried using the latest versions but for some reason they had this noticeable sound judder (there's always something lol) and so I only use v7 I think. Which is a shame as it doesn't have compatibility with the latest GameBase, I can only use v1 GB64, which I don't mind too much as there's like 20,000 games lol, but it would be nice to use the latest release. I mentioned this over at Xbox Scene in the XPort forums, and only a few users have noticed it, yet it's as plain as day to me and some other people. AFAIK it's never been fixed.

It really is an amazing emulator though, once you have the full SID pack and Screenshots, it comes together to be one of the most well rounded emu packages ever made.
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Re: Why Isn't Emulation Good Enough??

Post by Pixiu » Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:09 pm

Can't check right now, but mine wouldn't be the latest version. I was never very diligent about updating it. Probably just as well, from the sounds of it.

I just wish someone would port a version to the wii that took advantage of the wii's non-interlaced low res mode.
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Re: Why Isn't Emulation Good Enough??

Post by C=Style » Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:13 pm

Yeah, I'm pretty much the same in that respect. I love the fact the Wii has an advantage over the Xbox in low res progressive support. However, tbh when it comes to C64 I just play it in 480i with bi-linear filtering with simple 2x, of course stretched out to the correct aspect ratio (which happens to fit perfectly into a 16:9 display), and it's the only emulator I play in widescreen. I don't mind a bit of blur with this system. Don't get me wrong, if it non- interlace supported I'd probably use it, though unlike other emulators it deosn't stop me from enjoying 100%.

When it comes to Amiga I play in 720 x 576 it is so detailed with point filtering and no Flicker/Soft filter. It can flicker like crazy though some TV's. A 100hz CRT soon sorts that out though.

I agree that it's a real shame the Wii only has a port of Frodo (no offence to the person who ported it). No matter how good Frodo is, it just cannot compete with Vice. The Wii is similar in spec to the Xbox so we know it could handle it, but it's a lot harder to port emuators over allegedly so it's a shame it hasn't happened so far, but you never know.
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Re: Why Isn't Emulation Good Enough??

Post by Jay » Tue Mar 22, 2011 6:51 am

FatTrucker wrote:
As a matter of interest I just tried running Uridium with the latest Winvice on my PC CRT and downstairs on the LCDTV (connected via VGA), the one downstairs is running on a completely different PC too, so its not hardware dependent, neither shows any visible stutter or tearing. I didn't tinker with any of the video settings so this was the latest Vice running at whatever its default video settings are. I have to say though that you do notice tearing on some Mame games when running on the LCDTV if you have Triple Buffering turned off. With it enabled it seems to eliminate it completely.
Interesting. I wonder why both of your screens manage perfect horizontal scrolling while others don't.

I think this partly answers the question in the OP though. I have a great MAMEWAH set-up outputting to a CRT via s-video. It's great. Unfinished, but great. However, I've spent more time fiddling with it than I have actually playing. Loads of work has gone into that bastard. With original hardware, I can focus on playing some games. I fire up an emulator on the other hand and find myself constantly analysing it. Then I start fiddling with settings. Playing the games becomes secondary. ePSXe is the worst for this. With so many options, it's so easy to get caught up in trying every plug-in available for the best settings for each game.
FatTrucker wrote:Re the controls thing, its almost certainly to do with the way the controls encoder is set up. However if its only evident on some games it could also be to do with a disparity with the speed the game is being emulated at and the hardware the emulator is running on. There are also various throttling options in various emulators that can cause control lag when turned on.
Not entirely related as I don't have an arcade set-up so I don't have arcade controls, but I have found through personal experience that controller adaptors can have a massive effect on lag. I used to have two PS2->USB convertors which I was over the moon with, mainly because they handled the analog inputs from PS1/2 pads perfectly whereas others I had tried didn't fare so well in that department. It was only when I decided to play some fighting games on my set-up that I realised there was a problem. The games were virtually unplayable and it was because of controller lag. I tried some different convertors (which unfortunately don't handle the analog side of things very well but ho hum) and the results were completely different - fighting games became perfectly playable again.

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Re: Why Isn't Emulation Good Enough??

Post by Frank Chickens » Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:55 am

The only time when I have a good emulation session is on my handhelds as I feel that since I have so many emulators and games to go with them that I'm spoiled for choice and therefore get bored of them quickly as back in the days when you have to wait for games to load you appreciated them more and played them for a lot longer.

On the PC I feel that the time could be better spent doing other things like going on the Internet, creating videos or somesuch and that time playing games is a 'waste', as strange as that sounds.
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Re: Why Isn't Emulation Good Enough??

Post by FatTrucker » Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:43 am

Jay wrote: ePSXe is the worst for this. With so many options, it's so easy to get caught up in trying every plug-in available for the best settings for each game.
Use PSX mate, the compatibility is better, there aren't any plug-ins to worry about, the emulation is virtually 1:1 and using the simple in-built bilinear filter makes the games look great.
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