MS: 2011 is all about Kinect

Discuss and discover all the great games of yesteryear!

Moderators: mknott, NickThorpe, lcarlson, Darran@Retro Gamer, MMohammed

User avatar
killbot
Posts: 4824
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 5:36 am

Re: MS: 2011 is all about Kinect

Post by killbot » Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:13 pm

I'm wholly unconvinced by MS's insistance that Kinect isn't responsible for the failures, considering that it took them months to even admit publicly that the RROD hardware fault actually existed.

Kinect as hardware is obviously selling well, but what's the attatch rate for games? It can't be high, because most high-street stores are falling over themselves to discount Kinect software.
Image

You can buy my book here: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wolfshead-ebook ... =wolfshead

NES, SNES, N64, GC, Wii, Wii U, GB, GBC, GBA SP, DS Lite, 3DS, MS, MD, Saturn, DC, GG, Xbox, 360

User avatar
ToxieDogg
Posts: 8356
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:54 am
Location: Vice City, a.k.a. 'Liverpool'

Re: MS: 2011 is all about Kinect

Post by ToxieDogg » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:11 pm

necronom wrote:It sounds like it might decimate itself. As well as it's incredible failure rate, it now had the Kinect auto-destruct add-on. Kinect blamed for 'red ring of death' Xbox 360 failures
That 'story' is completely and utterly meaningless. It only mentions a specific problem with one Xbox 360, and it's warranty expired only last month...which means that they must have had it since 2007, as Microsoft extended the warranties on them to cover 3 years ages ago when they finally acknowledged the RROD problem.

So they've likely been using the console pretty heavily for 3 years (given that it's a family including 2 young boys playing on it), it finally gives up the ghost and they decide to blame Kinect because they've only just bought it? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

On a different note, with regards to killbot's post above, I'm also sceptical that people are actually buying many Kinect games. Of course, the tech itself is an easy sell in the shop and the masses will think it's 'cool', but when they've had it a couple of days and realise that the only games they can get for it are a mixture of the casual and complete sh!te, that's a different story....

Still, it lets you control menus with your hands and activate the console just by speaking doesn't it? Well worth paying over £100 for :roll:
Sig pic temporarily removed...The Magnificent 7 will ride again 8)
Lost Dragon wrote:The 1st rule about Feedback is..

You do not give Feedback!

User avatar
Freestyler
Posts: 4150
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:15 pm

Re: MS: 2011 is all about Kinect

Post by Freestyler » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:19 pm

Don't forget the really GOOD thing that Kinect/Move has shown us:

That most Game Developers, no matter how clever and innovative they believed themselves to be, choked horribly on adding something as simple as Motion Control to their games.


Seems like everyone thinks they're Nintendo. Right up until they get it horribly... horribly wrong.
And then suddenly it's the hardware's fault.
Freestyler: A customer that's too hard to please, complains all the time and wants everything for next to nothing.

User avatar
FatTrucker
Posts: 4724
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 12:23 pm
Location: Essex

Re: MS: 2011 is all about Kinect

Post by FatTrucker » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:28 pm

In fairness though, with a few notable exceptions most stuff on the Wii is either simple mini-game heavy stuff that's partying like its 1989 in terms of game mechanics, or its a conventional game with motion control shoehorned in.

Thus far pretty much no-one has done anything with motion control that makes you stop as a gamer and think....f**k me, that's the future!....Yes there are some inventive games out there, but none of them couldn't be done just as successfully using a conventional controller, which kind of makes motion control an excellent marketers tool for reaching new customers but does f**k all in terms of moving any game genre forward in any meaningful way.

With Move and Kinect it seems unlikely at the moment that any developers are going to do anything other than Ape whats gone before on the Wii.

Where are the new experiences, where are the new ways to play, where's the innovation.....where's my receipt?
Darran@Retro Gamer wrote:I've played all the Bratz games and Barbia Horse Adventures, due to having two girls and they are not rubbish in the slightest.
Feel free to add me on XBL.
Image

User avatar
thevulture
Posts: 10152
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 5:33 am

Re: MS: 2011 is all about Kinect

Post by thevulture » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:32 pm

The Red Ring Of Death seen blamed on games-each time a new, hyped title came out and someones machine died whilst playing it, it was THAT game wot done it, was fine before (PS3 owning friends of mine blamed death of the Blu-ray drive on certain games as well).MS even blamed the Red Ring on consoles plugged into anti-surge ext.leads at 1 point.Only concern i had when clicking that link:Further down the page news report: 'Saudis hold Israel spy Vulture'. hmmnnnn. Spy Vulture eh? :wink:

User avatar
ToxieDogg
Posts: 8356
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:54 am
Location: Vice City, a.k.a. 'Liverpool'

Re: MS: 2011 is all about Kinect

Post by ToxieDogg » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:49 pm

FatTrucker wrote:In fairness though, with a few notable exceptions most stuff on the Wii is either simple mini-game heavy stuff that's partying like its 1989 in terms of game mechanics, or its a conventional game with motion control shoehorned in.

Thus far pretty much no-one has done anything with motion control that makes you stop as a gamer and think....f**k me, that's the future!....Yes there are some inventive games out there, but none of them couldn't be done just as successfully using a conventional controller, which kind of makes motion control an excellent marketers tool for reaching new customers but does f**k all in terms of moving any game genre forward in any meaningful way.

With Move and Kinect it seems unlikely at the moment that any developers are going to do anything other than Ape whats gone before on the Wii.

Where are the new experiences, where are the new ways to play, where's the innovation.....where's my receipt?
You say that, and I'm not going to write out a huge list of games to argue with you, but I can at least name an absolute shitload of games off the top of my head for the Wii that aren't mini game compendiums, sports or exercise games.. and justify the expense of owning the hardware, for me and many other people. And a couple of those games were launch titles. Kinect didn't launch with anything along the lines of Zelda: Twilight Princess did it?

Not that I could imagine how on earth, no matter how hard I try, how any 'normal game like that can be properly played and enjoyed by using no controller at all other than your own body movements. Kinect's lack of a physical controller is going to hamper it in the long run, not create a whole new world of innovative gaming. It's a cool looking gadget with a 'wow' factor, but it's not really fit for purpose unless standing on the spot and playing on-rails/single screen minigames, dancing or exercising is why you bought an Xbox 360.
Sig pic temporarily removed...The Magnificent 7 will ride again 8)
Lost Dragon wrote:The 1st rule about Feedback is..

You do not give Feedback!

User avatar
FatTrucker
Posts: 4724
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 12:23 pm
Location: Essex

Re: MS: 2011 is all about Kinect

Post by FatTrucker » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:02 pm

ToxieDogg wrote: You say that, and I'm not going to write out a huge list of games to argue with you, but I can at least name an absolute shitload of games off the top of my head for the Wii that aren't mini game compendiums, sports or exercise games.. and justify the expense of owning the hardware, for me and many other people. And a couple of those games were launch titles. Kinect didn't launch with anything along the lines of Zelda: Twilight Princess did it?
Agreed, but I wasn't saying the Wii doesn't have any good games I was saying that there's not really anything on the Wii that couldn't be played with a conventional controller. The whole point is that no-one has really done anything with motion control that justifies it as a step forward, rather just as a gimmick or alternative.
In terms of the controller, while a lot of motion control games can be fun there's still nothing out there with that wow factor that validates it in its own right, other than bringing a bit more active involvement with rhythm action titles. The games generally are no more interactive because of motion control, control of on-screen avatars isn't any more dynamic as a result, the games are still coded with a digital mindset where your avatar has strictly pre-programmed moves and activities that are activated by moving the controller in a particular direction, no more or less interactive than using a thumbstick or d-pad except perhaps with more damping.
Darran@Retro Gamer wrote:I've played all the Bratz games and Barbia Horse Adventures, due to having two girls and they are not rubbish in the slightest.
Feel free to add me on XBL.
Image

User avatar
thevulture
Posts: 10152
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 5:33 am

Re: MS: 2011 is all about Kinect

Post by thevulture » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:15 pm

This has been my 'issue' with Motion-Control games since day 1 on ANY format (wii/Move/Kinnect).So far, i've seen nothing that has been built, from ground up around principle of way player interacts with the game, the control interface as it were.Most promising looking Kinnect title, speaking for myself is Children Of Eden, which i can play just fine with a pad.PS3 wise? Ruse use's the move for far better control in an RTS setting than a pad, but...had a mouse on my PS1 that had just the same effect.Dead Space Extraction has Move support, but then again, had light guns on pretty much every console, hell even C64 Operation Wolf had mouse support.So nothing has really re-invented the wheel, certainly not enough to convince me i need to shell out on addt.hardware at a time when prices on lifes essentials skyrocketing.The potential clearly there on all 3 formats, just needs the games to really showcase it.

User avatar
ToxieDogg
Posts: 8356
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:54 am
Location: Vice City, a.k.a. 'Liverpool'

Re: MS: 2011 is all about Kinect

Post by ToxieDogg » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:25 pm

@FatTrucker
While you are correct in everything you're saying, when motion control is used in the right way, it can really enhance the gaming experience. Take something like the recently released Hydroventure (a.k.a. Fluidity in the US) on WiiWare....you play it simply by tilting the controller left and right to control the flow of the water and flick it upwards to 'jump'. Nothing that couldn't be done with a control stick and a button. But I'd argue that playing it that way would be a very ordinary experience, whereas playing it with the tilt controls turns it into something very special. It just feels right. Likewise, that game on Kinect Adventures where you have to plug the leaks with your avatar's hands and feet would be perfectly playable with a controller but wouldn't be any fun, whereas having to physically do the movements yourself adds a lot to it. I don't think motion controls should ever be a replacement for traditional controllers at all where a normal controller would do, no way, but I think with some games they are a very worthwhile enhancement.

Note that I only say 'some games' though. The vast majority unfortunately have had motion controls needlessly shoehorned in and they can be annoying as a result (ie. Donkey Kong Coountry Returns, New Super Mario Bros. Wii). There's no way motion controls will ever completely replace 'traditional' controls, and people will soon realise the severe limitations of not having a physical controller at all if they haven't already.

TBH, I think that the Wii should've come packaged with a Classic Controller as standard (as well as the Wii Remote/Nunchuck). Nintendo shot themselves in the foot a little there as now all Wii third party developers seem to think that every game MUST make use of the motion controls in some way.
Sig pic temporarily removed...The Magnificent 7 will ride again 8)
Lost Dragon wrote:The 1st rule about Feedback is..

You do not give Feedback!

User avatar
FatTrucker
Posts: 4724
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 12:23 pm
Location: Essex

Re: MS: 2011 is all about Kinect

Post by FatTrucker » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:31 pm

ToxieDogg wrote:
Note that I only say 'some games' though. The vast majority unfortunately have had motion controls needlessly shoehorned in and they can be annoying as a result (ie. Donkey Kong Coountry Returns, New Super Mario Bros. Wii). There's no way motion controls will ever completely replace 'traditional' controls, and people will soon realise the severe limitations of not having a physical controller at all if they haven't already.
FatTrucker wrote:In fairness though, with a few notable exceptions most stuff on the Wii is either simple mini-game heavy stuff that's partying like its 1989 in terms of game mechanics, or its a conventional game with motion control shoehorned in.
Tomayto, Tomato. :wink:
Darran@Retro Gamer wrote:I've played all the Bratz games and Barbia Horse Adventures, due to having two girls and they are not rubbish in the slightest.
Feel free to add me on XBL.
Image

User avatar
Frank Chickens
Posts: 926
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 7:04 pm
Location: Brummieland

Re: MS: 2011 is all about Kinect

Post by Frank Chickens » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:36 pm

The software so far has been unimpressive and it will go the same way of the Wii (bunged into the cupboard after a month or so and brought out when friends and family come round) unless MS get their arse into gear and do something about it. What though remains to be seen as the last thing most people want to do after a day's work is jump around with a controller in their hand looking like a complete spanner and prefer something that's less hassle.
"A cynic is what an optimist calls a realist"

User avatar
ToxieDogg
Posts: 8356
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:54 am
Location: Vice City, a.k.a. 'Liverpool'

Re: MS: 2011 is all about Kinect

Post by ToxieDogg » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:46 pm

FatTrucker wrote:Tomayto, Tomato. :wink:
I know. :lol:

But I like the sound of my own voice, or the look of my own words, or whatever. :wink: Was just trying to emphasise that I agree with you, even when I don't. Kind of. :D
Frank Chickens wrote:The software so far has been unimpressive and it will go the same way of the Wii (bunged into the cupboard after a month or so and brought out when friends and family come round) unless MS get their arse into gear and do something about it. What though remains to be seen as the last thing most people want to do after a day's work is jump around with a controller in their hand looking like a complete spanner and prefer something that's less hassle.
Oh, I dunno. I reckon most people will leave it plugged in, just so they can show off by saying 'Xbox ON!' to get things working before they pick up the normal controller and use that to do everything else instead. :lol:
Sig pic temporarily removed...The Magnificent 7 will ride again 8)
Lost Dragon wrote:The 1st rule about Feedback is..

You do not give Feedback!

User avatar
killbot
Posts: 4824
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 5:36 am

Re: MS: 2011 is all about Kinect

Post by killbot » Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:01 pm

FatTrucker wrote:In fairness though, with a few notable exceptions most stuff on the Wii is either simple mini-game heavy stuff that's partying like its 1989 in terms of game mechanics, or its a conventional game with motion control shoehorned in.

Thus far pretty much no-one has done anything with motion control that makes you stop as a gamer and think....f**k me, that's the future!....Yes there are some inventive games out there, but none of them couldn't be done just as successfully using a conventional controller, which kind of makes motion control an excellent marketers tool for reaching new customers but does f**k all in terms of moving any game genre forward in any meaningful way.

With Move and Kinect it seems unlikely at the moment that any developers are going to do anything other than Ape whats gone before on the Wii.

Where are the new experiences, where are the new ways to play, where's the innovation.....where's my receipt?
I've only briefly played Move - and never Kinect - so I can only talk about the Wii, but there are definitely some games for which motion controls are a plus. Obviously for certain types of sports games (tennis, golf, bowling) it's perfect. It feels like a real retrograde step going back to playing golf on a regular controller after playing it with a Wiimote. It also works perfectly for FPS titles (perhaps not on a par with the mouse/keyboard combo, but miles better than analogue sticks).

I think where Wii and Move score over Kinect is that you can combine 'proper' controls (analogue sticks and buttons) with motion contols. With Kinect, you're left with the ability to wave your arms and legs about and... not much else.
Image

You can buy my book here: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wolfshead-ebook ... =wolfshead

NES, SNES, N64, GC, Wii, Wii U, GB, GBC, GBA SP, DS Lite, 3DS, MS, MD, Saturn, DC, GG, Xbox, 360

User avatar
AlleyKat
Posts: 1812
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2007 9:18 am
Location: Boss Rush

Re: MS: 2011 is all about Kinect

Post by AlleyKat » Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:05 pm

FatTrucker wrote:In fairness though, with a few notable exceptions most stuff on the Wii is either simple mini-game heavy stuff that's partying like its 1989 in terms of game mechanics, or its a conventional game with motion control shoehorned in.
Depends how unconventional you expect motion controlled games to be. Its hard to see how much more could've happened during this first motion control generation. Expecting complex new genres to appear, rather than just some new approaches to existing ones is expecting a tad too much. Particularly when there's only been a handful of decent developers prepared to take the risk of even experimenting a little.

A lot of games that make good use of motion/pointers (and I'd say there were more than a few) would be diminished by being on a pad, even if they managed to make a halfway workable transition. They'd be theoretically possible, maybe, but you'd lose "feel" at the very least, if not features in the case of games like Mario Galaxy and A Shadows Tale. As for less adventurous titles that still make decent, competent use of motion/pointers, to put it in retro terms you could play Operation Wolf with a joystick or Arkanoid on a keyboard, but is that really equivalent, let alone prefable, to using a gun or a spinner?

And aren't twin stick pads complete compromises when you get down to it? Aren't they basically a mutant solution that evolved from controllers designed for 2D games? If the Snes pad was a dog than the Dualshock was a dog with wings. I think exchanging the right stick for a seperate pointer makes perfect sense for 3D myself. :)

The wand and nunchuck control format is here now and it will evolve over the next couple of generations into the perfect all round tool for 3D games. I'm sure some will scoff, and fair play, but its early days yet. I suspect in five years there'll be very few people opting to play Half Life 4 or whatever with a pad.
killbot wrote:I think where Wii and Move score over Kinect is that you can combine 'proper' controls (analogue sticks and buttons) with motion contols. With Kinect, you're left with the ability to wave your arms and legs about and... not much else.
Yeah. The problem with Kinect is that it may not have enough flexibility outside of Eyetoy/Wii Sports style games to evolve in the same way as the Wiimote and Move will. It emphasises motion, but misses the benefit of a tangible pointing device, which is what will be more important for more involved games.

I think MS will have to ultimately release another device, possibly to be used along with Kinect, to have the perfect all-round device that the next Sony and Nintendo machines will have.
Last edited by AlleyKat on Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
speed/missile/double/laser/option/?

User avatar
Frank Chickens
Posts: 926
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 7:04 pm
Location: Brummieland

Re: MS: 2011 is all about Kinect

Post by Frank Chickens » Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:53 pm

ToxieDogg wrote:
Oh, I dunno. I reckon most people will leave it plugged in, just so they can show off by saying 'Xbox ON!' to get things working before they pick up the normal controller and use that to do everything else instead. :lol:
Lol, that's true enough, then carry on as normal as if to say apart from that it's gash.
"A cynic is what an optimist calls a realist"

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests