shmups

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Rayne
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Re: shmups

Post by Rayne » Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:36 pm

shmuppet is fantastic :lol: I'm tempted to force myself to play more just so I can be called that.
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TMR
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Re: shmups

Post by TMR » Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:17 pm

Thing is, a shoot 'em up is nowhere near as easy to make as people think; forgetting about the sheer trigonometry involved in making an enemy aim a shot at the player or the donkey work of writing a scripting engine, just the design side of things is complicated and getting it right a bugger of a job so the number of programmers who've said "let's do a shoot 'em up, that'll be easy" must be vast.

Bullet hell for example isn't a just a case of getting a metric f**kton of bullets onto the screen and letting the player deal with it (and Rassilon save me from games claiming to be bullet hell when they're just raining projectiles down on the player randomly), in most cases there are tons of inhibitors in place to prevent enemies firing when offscreen (and many titles go as far as locking them out if they're behind or too close to the player) and the bullet releases themselves are usually scripted so the waves can be learnt and scoring techniques built up over time - or you can just blunder in on instinct, reactions and caffeine like i usually do and still do reasonably well!

Even titles that aren't bullet hell are scripted to some degree, i've been playing Armed Formation (by Nichibutsu, 1988) for the last three or four hours and the bullet patterns are just as fixed there because enemies apparently fire at set times after spawning - the same goes for arcade blasters like Star Force (and that can get seriously busy with the bullets), C64 games such as Armalyte, Amiga blasters like Xenon 2 [spit], Raptor on the PC...

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gmintyfresh
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Re: shmups

Post by gmintyfresh » Sat Aug 07, 2010 9:19 am

snowkatt wrote:i dont like shmups
in fact i loath them
i find them annoying un fair horrific monsters that are far too difficult and infuriating and generally speaking i stay the hell away from them
especially the likes of r type or bullet hell games like dodonpachi and perfect cherry blossom which is like a firework display being sick
and i loath the one hit and your dead rule which is just plain ridicilous
and the mighty radient silvergun and ikaruga did nothing for me other then swear a lot

however having said that there are two shoot em ups i do actually like
and dust off from time to time and they are both on the same console go figure

darius gaiden not even a main series game its a side story with the mutant robo fish

and layer section also known as galactic attack and gunlock

i have no idea why i like those two just that i do

so which do you like ?
I'm a huge shmup fan, I can see why bullet hell puts people off but the sense of achievement after nailing them is brilliant!! It's strange you mention Darius, it's one of the few shmup series I've not got much time for. Layer Section is an underrated gem, personally at the moment I love Under Defeat, Raiden 4, R-Type Delta, Aero Blasters, and Thunderforce 5.

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JD!
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Re: shmups

Post by JD! » Sat Aug 07, 2010 9:35 am

snowkatt wrote:i dont like shmups
in fact i loath them
i find them annoying un fair horrific monsters that are far too difficult and infuriating and generally speaking i stay the hell away from them
especially the likes of r type or bullet hell games like dodonpachi and perfect cherry blossom which is like a firework display being sick
and i loath the one hit and your dead rule which is just plain ridicilous
and the mighty radient silvergun and ikaruga did nothing for me other then swear a lot

however having said that there are two shoot em ups i do actually like
and dust off from time to time and they are both on the same console go figure

darius gaiden not even a main series game its a side story with the mutant robo fish

and layer section also known as galactic attack and gunlock

i have no idea why i like those two just that i do

so which do you like ?
I gotta agree, I don't like shmups at all. I've yet to find one I do enjoy.
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Havantgottaclue
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Re: shmups

Post by Havantgottaclue » Sat Aug 07, 2010 10:18 am

I'll play shoot-'em-ups of any kind. And from a retrogaming perspective, to me no genre has weathered the years better, with games such as Galaga and Gyruss being every bit as playable as they were 25-30 years ago. By and large, the shoot-'em-ups I played as a youngster, from R-Type to Zynaps to Armalyte, don't disappoint today, whereas other genres have been superceded. Even the very best driving games, for example, from the late 80s/early 90s (the Lotus Trilogy and Crazy Cars III on the Amiga, in my experience) are utterly superceded by the Burnout games, Outrun C2C and more recently Blur.

Speaking of shoot-'em-ups, is anyone buying Raiden Fighters Aces on its European release later this month? Very sensible price - £20, with the likes of Shopto inevitably knocking a few quid off. I'm almost certainly going to get hold of it.
Soon you will have forgotten all things: soon all things will have forgotten you. (Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book 7)

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Re: shmups

Post by IronMaidenRule » Sat Aug 07, 2010 11:28 am

Havantgottaclue wrote:I'll play shoot-'em-ups of any kind. And from a retrogaming perspective, to me no genre has weathered the years better, with games such as Galaga and Gyruss being every bit as playable as they were 25-30 years ago. By and large, the shoot-'em-ups I played as a youngster, from R-Type to Zynaps to Armalyte, don't disappoint today, whereas other genres have been superceded. Even the very best driving games, for example, from the late 80s/early 90s (the Lotus Trilogy and Crazy Cars III on the Amiga, in my experience) are utterly superceded by the Burnout games, Outrun C2C and more recently Blur.

Speaking of shoot-'em-ups, is anyone buying Raiden Fighters Aces on its European release later this month? Very sensible price - £20, with the likes of Shopto inevitably knocking a few quid off. I'm almost certainly going to get hold of it.
I have ordered Raiden Fighter Aces, Play.com sent me an email to other day saying it has been delayed till September :evil:

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David
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Re: shmups

Post by David » Sat Aug 07, 2010 3:14 pm

Rayne wrote:a zombie on a unicycle.
Now THAT would make a good game

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Rayne
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Re: shmups

Post by Rayne » Sat Aug 07, 2010 3:29 pm

David wrote:
Rayne wrote:a zombie on a unicycle.
Now THAT would make a good game
House of the Dead Overkill MIGHT have done that...it's been too long since I last played it :lol:
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Mootown
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Re: shmups

Post by Mootown » Sat Aug 07, 2010 5:58 pm

I'll play anything with the words 'thunder' and 'force' in the title. I prefer side scrollers to vertical but got to admit 2D shmups are one of the reasons I love playing video game so much

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famicom69
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Re: shmups

Post by famicom69 » Sat Aug 07, 2010 6:51 pm

IronMaidenRule wrote: I have ordered Raiden Fighter Aces, Play.com sent me an email to other day saying it has been delayed till September :evil:
Noooooo! Was looking forward to that this month.

I've been getting back into shooters lately, what with the abundance of cheap ps2 games. It just sucks that the Gradius/Salamander deluxe packs were never released over here. Salamander is awesome, but I really want to play the sequel.

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JazzFunk
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Re: shmups

Post by JazzFunk » Sat Aug 07, 2010 8:55 pm

gmintyfresh wrote:It's strange you mention Darius, it's one of the few shmup series I've not got much time for.
Same here, I love the graphics and the colours but find the games much too rigid and punishing to play and not actually that fun. Oddly, I've tried most of the home versions, Sagaia, Darius Gaiden, G-Darius and the like but *STILL* don't really like them that much (though my 'gaming mind' is always attracted to them). It seems to take ages to upgrade to anything decent and if you die, the powerups you get back are scant compensation for the aeons it took to upgrade initially. Bah! :?

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gmintyfresh
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Re: shmups

Post by gmintyfresh » Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:18 am

JazzFunk wrote:
gmintyfresh wrote:It's strange you mention Darius, it's one of the few shmup series I've not got much time for.
Same here, I love the graphics and the colours but find the games much too rigid and punishing to play and not actually that fun. Oddly, I've tried most of the home versions, Sagaia, Darius Gaiden, G-Darius and the like but *STILL* don't really like them that much (though my 'gaming mind' is always attracted to them). It seems to take ages to upgrade to anything decent and if you die, the powerups you get back are scant compensation for the aeons it took to upgrade initially. Bah! :?
You should play Darius R mate on the GBA, no wonder it never got a release outside of japan. Great graphics but highly repetative and bland weapons - boo!!

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Crunchy
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Re: shmups

Post by Crunchy » Sun Aug 08, 2010 1:49 pm

TMR wrote:These games evolved to keep up with the players, during the 1990's the majority of gamers went mental about 3D so the only people sticking with 2D shoot 'em ups were the shmuppets [1] who were already rather good at them and, since there were less blasters coming out, they spent their timetruly hammering a finite number of titles far more. The result was a feedback loop, the games got harder and the players got better. If more players had stuck with the 2D shooters instead this effect would at least have been watered down, so mainstream gamers abandoning the genre are at least partly to blame for what happened.
Evolved. Hmmm.

The other word for it is stagnation. If shmups "evolved" then it was into a dead end. You can't blame the mainstream for moving towards newer and more intersting shiny things. The genre was already tired when 3D arrived. It's up to the devs to keep their chosen genres fresh. When the only response you can come up with is "more bullets" it's probably time to move on.
The 3D thing gets a lot of blame but titles on this generation's consoles have proved there's a huge market for 2D games if the quality is there and the price is right. Shmups have become too traditional to take advantage of this. Too stuck up their own jacksies. That's definitely not the fault of the mainstream.

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Re: shmups

Post by IronMaidenRule » Sun Aug 08, 2010 1:57 pm

famicom69 wrote:
IronMaidenRule wrote: I have ordered Raiden Fighter Aces, Play.com sent me an email to other day saying it has been delayed till September :evil:
Noooooo! Was looking forward to that this month.

I've been getting back into shooters lately, what with the abundance of cheap ps2 games. It just sucks that the Gradius/Salamander deluxe packs were never released over here. Salamander is awesome, but I really want to play the sequel.
Confirmation here, 10/09/2010, but there is now a video and some screenies!

http://www.play.com/Games/Xbox360/4-/14 ... oduct.html

I hope those borders are only on the video and not on the actual game!

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TMR
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Re: shmups

Post by TMR » Sun Aug 08, 2010 4:25 pm

Crunchy wrote:You can't blame the mainstream for moving towards newer and more intersting shiny things. The genre was already tired when 3D arrived. It's up to the devs to keep their chosen genres fresh. When the only response you can come up with is "more bullets" it's probably time to move on.
i didn't blame the mainstream for moving towards new shinies because that's how it's always worked, but their doing so is part of what caused the feedback loop that made the genre so insular and the games so difficult for players who aren't used to them.
Crunchy wrote:The 3D thing gets a lot of blame but titles on this generation's consoles have proved there's a huge market for 2D games if the quality is there and the price is right.
Yes, as long as companies making 2D games have a reasonably mainstream channel like XBLA to distribute them through there's a market out there - but in the 1990's when 3D became the Next Big Thing, there were no download services to act as a "budget" distributor and the major channels were so wedged full of new 3D titles that anyone still trying to do something in 2D was all but crowded out.
Crunchy wrote:Shmups have become too traditional to take advantage of this. Too stuck up their own jacksies. That's definitely not the fault of the mainstream.
Except they are taking advantage of it... and that's despite the rumours that reckon getting a 2D shooter onto XBLA is harder than other genres.

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