What's the most iconic retro game that's actually rubbish?

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Megamixer
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Re: What's the most iconic retro game that's actually rubbish?

Post by Megamixer » Sat Jul 25, 2020 6:01 am

Re. Mario 64, I don't think that a game should be above criticism or considered untouchable purely because of what came after. Lots of games were ground-breaking or important for their respective genres but aren't necessarily great games. Many games get put on pedestals and revered for what they did, yet aren't actually great to play - especially years down the line. I think some of us are stubborn and refuse to accept that we are looking at the games we knew through rose-tinted glasses.

As for Mario 64 specifically, it is far from a "rubbish" game. But did you have to be there at the time to appreciate it and be able to look back at it now as one of the all-time greats? I was a Playstation kid and so didn't play Mario 64 until many, many years later. When I eventually did, I enjoyed it but I didn't consider it a masterpiece to be viewed with respect. It was a fun, charming platformer but that was it.
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Re: What's the most iconic retro game that's actually rubbish?

Post by srj672 » Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:26 am

Agree with the above. There's plenty Mario 64 gets right that's still charming to play, but time has marched on with it. It was amazing at the time, and even held on to its charm as an early 3D game, but the physics are way jankier than I remembered. Not sure if it's because the pad I have is old or there's some sort of lag, but he ain't as agile as I remembered (although still more agile than Sunshine!). Overall a charming game, but I can't play it for hours like I used to.

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Re: What's the most iconic retro game that's actually rubbish?

Post by ulrich7ad » Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:24 am

I still enjoy mario 64, personally think it's better than odyssey. Banjo is still better than both though imo.

Metal gear also gets on me tits. Story is absolute bobbins. You can't tell a fan that either or they will claim you 'don't understand it'. I understand it fine, it's just crap.

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Re: What's the most iconic retro game that's actually rubbish?

Post by Matt_B » Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:26 pm

I'd think that Mario 64, for all its faults, has aged a damn sight better than most N64 games. Let's face it; they're all fighting a constant battle against low poly counts, short draw distances, a lack of RAM both overall and particularly for textures, and usually losing quite badly. What other systems can you think of where a launch game is consistently held up as among the top handful too?

Paper Mario holds up way better though. It's one of a very small number of N64 games that still look good, and its game mechanics are considerably less clunky than some of the more recent entries in the series into the bargain.

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Re: What's the most iconic retro game that's actually rubbish?

Post by Sephiroth81 » Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:35 am

Matt_B wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:14 pm

Naah, I'll go straight for the jugular with Final Fantasy 7.
:shock: Would you care to step outside? This won't take a moment...

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Re: What's the most iconic retro game that's actually rubbish?

Post by merman » Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:34 am

Too many people seem to be picking games they didn't like instead of games that are actually flawed...
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Re: What's the most iconic retro game that's actually rubbish?

Post by DPrinny » Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:45 am

merman wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:34 am
Too many people seem to be picking games they didn't like instead of games that are actually flawed...
By that logic, no game is good as every game has a flaw.
EVEN DOOM!!

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Re: What's the most iconic retro game that's actually rubbish?

Post by rossi46 » Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:10 pm

merman wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:34 am
Too many people seem to be picking games they didn't like instead of games that are actually flawed...
This is why I've resisted temptation so far to post much in this thread. I, too, posted subjectively on page one before I realised I'd misunderstood the title.
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Re: What's the most iconic retro game that's actually rubbish?

Post by pratty » Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:55 pm

merman wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:34 am
Too many people seem to be picking games they didn't like instead of games that are actually flawed...
Surely since they don't like them they perceive them to be flawed.
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Re: What's the most iconic retro game that's actually rubbish?

Post by Antiriad2097 » Sun Jul 26, 2020 4:10 pm

A flawed game is not necessarily a rubbish game, neither is a disliked one. I don't like loads of games, but I can see why others do.

Some games are just terribly broken though. Like Defender. Great game when ported to other systems, but the original has a control scheme that just doesn't work. Taking directional control away from the stick and onto a button makes no sense and is counterintuitive. It actively gets in the way of gameplay. It's a shame as the core game is great, but the controls kill it dead for everyone except those willing to unlearn how game controls did and should work.
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Re: What's the most iconic retro game that's actually rubbish?

Post by Matt_B » Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:30 pm

Antiriad2097 wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 4:10 pm
A flawed game is not necessarily a rubbish game, neither is a disliked one. I don't like loads of games, but I can see why others do.

Some games are just terribly broken though. Like Defender. Great game when ported to other systems, but the original has a control scheme that just doesn't work. Taking directional control away from the stick and onto a button makes no sense and is counterintuitive. It actively gets in the way of gameplay. It's a shame as the core game is great, but the controls kill it dead for everyone except those willing to unlearn how game controls did and should work.
I think that you're a tad unkind there. Defender was, after all, the first scrolling shooter to hit the arcades and only subsequent games that established the stick as the control method for direction rather than it being the one to break away from an established mould. Conversely, most ports are somewhat compromised on machines where you've only got a single button joystick so there's nothing to map the smart bombs and hyperspace to and you've got to go lurching towards the keyboard when you need them.

If you want a really broken version how about the Atari 2600 port where it's the height that you're flying at that determines whether you shoot, hyperspace or detonate a smart bomb? Plus the flickering is so abominable that you could probably use it to test people for photo-sensitive epilepsy. As ever though, I know people who'd consider it a favourite.

Still, while we're talking about sub-par controls, I'll throw in sim racers where you don't use a steering wheel and platform games where you press up on the stick to jump. Modern gamers who've never experienced either just don't realize how good they've got it.
Sephiroth81 wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:35 am
Matt_B wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:14 pm

Naah, I'll go straight for the jugular with Final Fantasy 7.
:shock: Would you care to step outside? This won't take a moment...
Will it involve several unnecessary minutes of picking the default option off a menu and watching crap and unskippable animations play out to see a result that could just have easily been determined by checking the level the player is at. :lol:

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Re: What's the most iconic retro game that's actually rubbish?

Post by JamesC » Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:34 am

Some games can be rubbish but are still cool.

Lots of people say R-Type 2 is a poor sequel, being nowhere near as balanced as the first game. It's still really cool though - and is fun to play if you're happy to remain calm and not get too upset at the cheap deaths.
Most SNK shooters have a similar problem - I generally find them almost unplayably difficult but they're so pretty that there's still something cool about them.

I always thought the 'play it twice' design of Ghouls n Ghosts was unbelievably cheap and rubbish. I'm not good enough to complete the first run-through anyway, so I'm happy to replay the first 3 or 4 levels over and over. There's no doubting that the double playthrough requirement is rubbish design though.

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Re: What's the most iconic retro game that's actually rubbish?

Post by merman » Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:44 pm

pratty wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:55 pm
merman wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:34 am
Too many people seem to be picking games they didn't like instead of games that are actually flawed...
Surely since they don't like them they perceive them to be flawed.
I'm not a fan of stealth so I don't like a lot of games with stealth in them. But that doesn't mean those games are flawed and should be in this thread.
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Re: What's the most iconic retro game that's actually rubbish?

Post by Rev. Stuart Campbell » Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:12 pm

Matt_B wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:30 pm
I think that you're a tad unkind there. Defender was, after all, the first scrolling shooter to hit the arcades and only subsequent games that established the stick as the control method for direction rather than it being the one to break away from an established mould. Conversely, most ports are somewhat compromised on machines where you've only got a single button joystick so there's nothing to map the smart bombs and hyperspace to and you've got to go lurching towards the keyboard when you need them.
Yeah. I mean, there's absolutely no reason for arcade Defender to split movement into a two-way joystick and two buttons instead of just using an eight-way joystick, but on an arcade cabinet where you can put as many buttons on the control panel as you want it doesn't really intrude. But home versions for formats that were predominantly joystick-controlled (more or less everything except the Speccy) were hell.

Of course, now if you have a Retropie with an arcade stick you can map whatever buttons you like anywhere, so it all works again :D

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Re: What's the most iconic retro game that's actually rubbish?

Post by Antiriad2097 » Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:40 pm

I still think it would be a hell of a lot easier with left/right directional control on the stick, even if you keep the thrust button for speed control. Having a single button to flip directions just feels wrong to me. You can't map it to a stick, as it's a toggle, so two lefts = right etc.
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