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resident paul
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Post by resident paul » Wed Feb 13, 2008 5:41 am

If they enforce them the updates for for virus killers, anti-spyware & firewalls can't be download, if taken to the extreme everytime you go on the internet you accused of downloading to see a web page?

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TMR
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Post by TMR » Wed Feb 13, 2008 5:42 am

psj3809 wrote:Good point, would take them forever to find out whats in certain files etc.
The Beeb article mentioned powers to force users to decrypt files as well, that opens a whole new can of legal worms because there could well be situations where the person in question simply didn't have the key to do so. It turns the whole innocent until proven guilty thing on it's head, someone holding an encrypted file is considered guilty until they can prove otherwise.

Thinking about it, i believe that American law has allowances so that defendants can't be forced to incriminate themselves - i wonder how things stand in the UK and Europe, does anyone know?
psj3809 wrote:Just another scaremongering tactic by the government. I heard how downloads were killing music sales etc but then a week later i heard album sales were at their highest ever ? (might have changed now)
i'm pretty sure that's been fairly consistent during the RIAA legal actions and so forth too; the companies claim that downloads kill sales and produce the constantly lowering sales of singles (which were, i believe, on a downward trend well before downloading became mainstream) or the poor take up of DRM-based online stores (that disallow transferring music that's been paid for between devices) as proof, neatly avoiding any mention of album sales going up in the process.

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Greyfox
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Post by Greyfox » Wed Feb 13, 2008 5:50 am

New law will disconnect internet pirates in UK

Internet users who illegally download music and films could lose their access to the web under legislation aimed at cracking down on those who flout piracy laws. Powers being drafted by the government will compel internet service providers to take action against customers who access pirated material. The Department of Media, Culture and Sport will recommend the plan in a green paper on the creative industries to be published this month, a source with knowledge of the paper said. Under the new sanctions users will face a “three strikesâ€
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http://www.greyfoxbooks.com

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Antiriad2097
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Post by Antiriad2097 » Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:05 am

sscott wrote:start with people downloading tens of gigabytes of data every month.
You won't see much of me then. Tens of Gigabytes is small potatoes. I do that just in TV shows, many of which aren't available here in any form, so no loss of sale there. I never use my VHS to timeshift, its better/more convenient to download the show and get a HQ version that's way better than my VHS. Now if they'd sort out the TV signal in my area I might not be so huffy. I do it less now the major networks have legit online downloads for their shows.
sscott wrote:We've all discussed before the argument about old retro games not costing the company any money but modern media is certainly a different issue.
No its not. As already stated, I can't buy/watch the shows here and they've already clamped down on grey imports with their region encoding and DRM. If it was easy to transfer movies to my PSP, I wouldn't download copies of films I've already bought on DVD.
sscott wrote:A lot of teenagers and younger have absolutely no understanding of copyright whatsoever and regularly use the common file sharing services meaning the problem will only get worse.
Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Teach them right from wrong, don't revert to a nanny state.
sscott wrote:However, as usual, if the big illegal servers were shut down this would limit (not elliminate) downloads. I am fully aware that new ones will start up again but that dosen't mean the ISP's shouldn't try.
Except most of them don't fall under UK jurisdiction. Some of them aren't even illegal in the host country. ISPs can't be held responsible for monitoring their user's actions. Maybe we'll start having knife companies penalised for knife crime?

There's clearly a public desire for these facilities. Its about time the media companies woke up to it and cut out the middle men. Give me media at reasonable prices online. I may not go to the cinema often, but I'd rent a film for a night for a quid or two. I'll buy music at a couple of quid per album. With the reduced manufacturing and distribution costs, it should be more than feasible.
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sscott
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Post by sscott » Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:53 am

I appreciate your points Antriad but this 'nanny' state is heading our way anyway. While you have your reasons why you do what you do regards acess to DVD material you would otherwise not get I doubt the majority of people using peer-to-peer services etc... have put as much thought into it as you have but hide in the anonymity and knowledge that at most all they would ever get is a slap on the wrirst for their actions. I'm sure that you put a fair amount of money back into the game/music/film industry but some people probably don't - that MUST cost someone money. Individuals are rarely worth taking to court (time + cost) and even distributing websites often just get cease and desist letters.
Wonder what the Writers Guild of America would make of all this. They've been arguing over royalties on DVDs and Internet download sales for months.
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Post by JetSetWilly » Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:57 am

i'd have to agree with antiriad there.
my mate works for Zavvi and he said that prices, instead of going down, were going up. the price of one album jumped from £8 to £18 in the space of 24 hours recently.
although some prices are cheap, some are more dear than others.
i don't think the government is going to stop everyone downloading. especially as mentioned before, some shows in America are never shown here. its like some movies getting a region 1 dvd release and not region 2. i admit, i do import, but some movies are too damned expensive (Battle Beyond the Stars, released on region 2, i admit, but i dont fancy paying up to £30 for it!).
another instance is In The Mouth Of Madness by john Carpenter. an excellent movie, but its not on sale on DVD over here. and i dont have a video player any more so theres no point buying the vhs tape. and, ive heard, the region 1 dvd is as rare as rocking horse crap. so, my only option: download it, which ive held off doing.
if companies made the media available to others and not just a select few (americans, rich people), then people wouldn't resort to downloading.

sorry for the rant, and it probably dont make much sense anyway!!!!!
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Opa-Opa
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Post by Opa-Opa » Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:04 am

If they were able to enforce it then the black market for films would flare up again.
There used to be a few blokes selling good quality pirates at the bootfairs I visit for around five quid a disk, but since most people now have access to broadband and file sharing these guys haven't been seen for a long time.
If you make anything harder to get there will be a black market to buy it from at half the price and there will always be a spiv who can get you what you want, at least this way some dirty jobless pikey isn't earning more a week tax free than we are.

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Post by The Universal » Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:20 am

Good point. Its interesting that it is cheaper to buy a CD in ASDA than to download from MSN, plus you get the case and artwork, maybe the answer lies in realistic pricing for digital content.

I have bought loads on Steam purely because of the price compared to retail versions. I do download roms however, but this is because aminly they arent available at retail anymore and I cant purchase them, and to my mind if the hardware doent work that I bought the games for in the first place it kinds of validates itself in my concience seeing as buying second hand doesnt benefit manufacturers.
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sscott
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Post by sscott » Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:13 am

Ulimately this is all about your conscience. You can get away with it but should you. If someone has a copy of I Am Legend or their PC or a DVD than I personally think that's wrong. They will always be gray areas and I know we have discussed it many times, I just hope too many people aren't taking the pi**.
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Antiriad2097
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Post by Antiriad2097 » Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:12 am

sscott wrote:If someone has a copy of I Am Legend or their PC or a DVD than I personally think that's wrong.
Why? I paid a stupid amount to go to the cinema to see it.

If I want to see it again, or recommend it to a friend who would also be happy to pay, what are the options?

Its not in the cinema any more.

Its not available on DVD (though I never pay initial retail price - a fiver is more than enough for a disc).

Its not available (legally) as a download.

So we resort to torrents. We are given no other choice. The studios could have this thing on digital download before the print even hit the cinema, so why the delay?
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Mayhem
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Post by Mayhem » Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:32 am

TMR wrote:i'm pretty sure that's been fairly consistent during the RIAA legal actions and so forth too; the companies claim that downloads kill sales and produce the constantly lowering sales of singles (which were, i believe, on a downward trend well before downloading became mainstream) or the poor take up of DRM-based online stores (that disallow transferring music that's been paid for between devices) as proof, neatly avoiding any mention of album sales going up in the process.
The majority of people (quite often teenagers) who illegally download wouldn't have paid for the songs if there was no other way anyhow, so all those millions and millions of lost sales the RIAA bleat on about is completely false.

On the other hand many people I know use this ability to test the water for new bands or things they've not heard before, before then going on to actually buy the CD is they like it. I think that's why album sales are going up and singles down; people dislike paying 3 quid for one track but don't mind paying 10 quid for an album. Physical item I mean.

What are single song downloads doing at the moment? There's some unbelievable talent out there at the moment and I fully expect the online distribution is making things easier for many people to be heard.
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sscott
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Post by sscott » Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:40 am

Antiriad2097 wrote:
sscott wrote:If someone has a copy of I Am Legend or their PC or a DVD than I personally think that's wrong.
Why? I paid a stupid amount to go to the cinema to see it.

If I want to see it again, or recommend it to a friend who would also be happy to pay, what are the options?

Its not in the cinema any more.

Its not available on DVD (though I never pay initial retail price - a fiver is more than enough for a disc).

Its not available (legally) as a download.

So we resort to torrents. We are given no other choice. The studios could have this thing on digital download before the print even hit the cinema, so why the delay?
You RESORT to torrents, what last act of desperation is this for you. This isn't the kind of choice like stealing food to feed a starving family. The outpouring of grief I have for you waiting for the DVD release of a movie is too much.
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Post by SirClive » Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:45 am

I agree with sscot, you are not suffering, this isn't a right. Its entertainment and we have to pay for almost all entertainment.
In the 60's you wouldn't claim a right to film reels when it came off the cinema. Just because someone has illegally recorded it doesn't make it right for you to have access to it.

Don't get me wrong, I use torrents. But I know it is bad and I know if I use illegal files I risk a kicking from the copyright owners. I just choose to accept that risk (currently).
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psj3809
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Post by psj3809 » Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:49 am

I agree, i'm no saint but i know its not my 'right' to download / watch a film just because its not on in the cinema anymore. (I thought we are legend has just come out on dvd anyway ?!)

Like SirClive says i know i'm taking a risk if i download a dodgy film or that. I hardly download music and when i do its because i cant wait a few months for the proper release but i always buy the original once its out (have all original cd's of my favourite bands - bit like collecting the old Ultimate games back in the day, it looks good all the albums !).

I've also bought a fair few films when i've watched a pirate film and its been so good i've thought 'i have to buy the original once its out'.

I'm glad though because of downloads as i said earlier US shows come out much sooner over here instead of a stupid wait. Again i know its not my 'right' to watch it straight away but for years its so frustrating knowing its out in the US but not being able to watch it for ages, thats until torrents got big

At the end of the day if you did pay a 'stupid amount to go see it at the cinema' its your choice, think its too dear then wait for it to come down in price. If you want to save money join a rental dvd online club which are very good, i'm stunned when i hear people buy dvds left right and centre then hardly watch them. I regularly rent dvds as i normally watch most films just once.

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Antiriad2097
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Post by Antiriad2097 » Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:55 am

I'm not saying its a right, I'm just highlighting that to some extent the companies themselves are to blame for extensive piracy. They are unable to meet the demands of their consumers, despite the ease with which they could sate that demand. They are in a competitive market and they're failing to compete.
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Tom_Baker wrote:I just finished watching a film about Stockholm syndrome. It started out terrible but by the end I really liked it.

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