Obese people banned from routine surgery

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Megamixer
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Re: Obese people banned from routine surgery

Post by Megamixer » Fri Sep 09, 2016 12:10 pm

Sephiroth81 wrote:
Sel Feena wrote:
Absolutely don't buy the idea that big old nasty food companies are forcing junk down our throats either, you're a grown adult, take responsibility for what you put on your table.
Some of their marketing is a bit questionable though (timing, placement, who its aimed at)
Well that's how basic marketing works or else you'll never sell your product!

I wouldn't welcome hiked up prices on 'bad food', just as the fizzy drinks tax irks me (though it won't be significant enough to make any difference imo). I enjoy some crap now and then but I'm "in control" of it and don't want to be paying jacked-up prices due to the bad diets of others.
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Sephiroth81
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Re: Obese people banned from routine surgery

Post by Sephiroth81 » Fri Sep 09, 2016 12:57 pm

Megamixer wrote:
Well that's how basic marketing works or else you'll never sell your product!

I wouldn't welcome hiked up prices on 'bad food', just as the fizzy drinks tax irks me (though it won't be significant enough to make any difference imo). I enjoy some crap now and then but I'm "in control" of it and don't want to be paying jacked-up prices due to the bad diets of others.
Hmm, basic marketing - exploiting children for profit! Its sad but true I guess. I think companies could be more responsible though, and should sporting events really be plastered with McDonalds and Coke billboards, like at the Euros or Olympics? Crap food companies are so huge, and that is part of the problem - collectively we're eating too much of their products that they can afford to plaster their wares in such huge events!

As I've said before, people who only consume crap food occasionally shouldn't be affected by a tax hike, as they would see the return back in lower healthy snacks/food prices. Its just a case of making some adjustments here and there, its not about penalising the non-obese. Plus in many peoples case, like yourself (and me), would being persuaded to have just a little less "crap" food in your overall diet be such a disaster or impact my daily life negatively?

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The Beans
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Re: Obese people banned from routine surgery

Post by The Beans » Fri Sep 09, 2016 1:35 pm

Sephiroth81 wrote:Plus in many peoples case, like yourself (and me), would being persuaded to have just a little less "crap" food in your overall diet be such a disaster or impact my daily life negatively?
It wouldn't be a disaster but it's something to be strongly resisted. When are you thicko do-gooders going to get it into your thick skulls that many of us really don't like being told how to live our lives by self righteous, nanny state obsessed, social engineering fuckwits?
If it's slower than me, dumber than me and it tastes good ... tough titty.

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Sephiroth81
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Re: Obese people banned from routine surgery

Post by Sephiroth81 » Fri Sep 09, 2016 4:49 pm

The Beans wrote: It wouldn't be a disaster but it's something to be strongly resisted. When are you thicko do-gooders going to get it into your thick skulls that many of us really don't like being told how to live our lives by self righteous, nanny state obsessed, social engineering fuckwits?
Of course there will always be paranoid right wingers who think the government is out to get them, the world is closing in on them, and outsiders are infiltrating and taking over. :roll:

I read an anthropological explanation once for left and right wingers in human society - it said they are both vestiges of pre-civilisation tribal communities, where a group of hyper-paranoid primates actually benefited the groups survival chances. The community would also require a body of members similarly predisposed towards looking after the welfare and development of individuals within that community. Sadly, evolution hasn't kept up with advances in civilisation, with the former now being more than redundant and they actually stifle human progress and development. The main threat of danger to societies around the world come from other paranoid right wingers beating their chests and the war drums. That pre-disposition is, and always has been, fairly evenly balanced and is not an inherited trait, if it were, the weaker one would have been eliminated in the millennia since they had little survival value. Our DNA just randomly assigns it, evidently.

Go and stockpile some mars bars and cherry cokes before the social engineering begins, and continue to rage about health and safety going "mad".

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The Beans
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Re: Obese people banned from routine surgery

Post by The Beans » Fri Sep 09, 2016 5:56 pm

Sephiroth81 wrote:
The Beans wrote: It wouldn't be a disaster but it's something to be strongly resisted. When are you thicko do-gooders going to get it into your thick skulls that many of us really don't like being told how to live our lives by self righteous, nanny state obsessed, social engineering fuckwits?
Of course there will always be paranoid right wingers who think the government is out to get them, the world is closing in on them, and outsiders are infiltrating and taking over. :roll:

I read an anthropological explanation once for left and right wingers in human society - it said they are both vestiges of pre-civilisation tribal communities, where a group of hyper-paranoid primates actually benefited the groups survival chances. The community would also require a body of members similarly predisposed towards looking after the welfare and development of individuals within that community. Sadly, evolution hasn't kept up with advances in civilisation, with the former now being more than redundant and they actually stifle human progress and development. The main threat of danger to societies around the world come from other paranoid right wingers beating their chests and the war drums. That pre-disposition is, and always has been, fairly evenly balanced and is not an inherited trait, if it were, the weaker one would have been eliminated in the millennia since they had little survival value. Our DNA just randomly assigns it, evidently.
You'd have a slight case if your idea of "progress and development" wasn't always just a dull trudge towards an everlasting leaf-munching blandness where everybody does the same things, eats the same things, drinks the same things and thinks the same things.
If it's slower than me, dumber than me and it tastes good ... tough titty.

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Re: Obese people banned from routine surgery

Post by Sephiroth81 » Fri Sep 09, 2016 6:11 pm

No, thats the paranoia again I'm pleased to inform you. Your cheerful existence will always be welcomed in the inclusive utopia!

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Re: Obese people banned from routine surgery

Post by crusto » Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:47 pm

Government is crap
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Re: Obese people banned from routine surgery

Post by pratty » Sat Sep 10, 2016 1:27 pm

Sephiroth81 wrote:I am glad you don't feel that way, I was only being half-serious about you wishing the worst on smokers - and lets face it, there are plenty of people who have little sympathy for others struggling with addictions. Which is rather a sad reflection of some in society. Its possible there are a few people on this forum who share this kind of mindset. If you found this offensive, then I apologise.
No problem, I hope I've made my point clear now, lets move on.

I agree it's a joke that tobacco and alcohol are legal while pot isn't.

Health food stamps might work, incorporating them into people's benefits might be tricky to implement, and it would probably just create yet more bureaucracy, but the underlying principle is sound.

Junk food marketing certainly doesn't help, and a lot of the industry should be ashamed of itself, but ultimtely we need to be resposible for what we consume, they do it because it works.

I wouldn't consider myself right wing or left wing, i'm actually quite liberal yet I find myself compelled to resist the attitudes of the left. Beans has a point, the increased collectivism of the left is by it's nature at odds with diversity. So-called progressive social/political movements are resulting in increased uniformity where it counts; in thoughts and actions, while the left's much championed cause of diversity only addresses the more superficial differences such as skin colour and gender.

We're not at Borg level collectivism yet though, and we won't be with the increased pushback. Those of us resisting leftist collectivist thinking doesn't necessarliy us "right wing" with all the negative connotations of that, such as being a selfish, greedy, war-mongering nazi, it just means you disagree with it. Even those that would happliy bomb ISIS into oblivion don't actually want war, they don't want to conquer anybody, on the contrary they just want to be left alone and get on with their western infidel lives in peace.

It's not that people don't have compassion either, they just want their contributions respected and not taken for granted, and they probably don't appreciate the state's figurative, if not literal, gun to their head for their obedience. And it's the force of the state that backs collectivism and other leftist policies that is the dirty secret the left neglect to mention, sure on the surface it's all presented as 'liberal', caring and non threatening, but behind it is the same jackboot up your ass you get with right wing fascism.

My theory for the left's reliance on the authority of the state is that it relieves them of the same dilema we all face that they won't admit; how much to give to good causes and whether to give at all. How easy it is to preach wealth redistribution when the state has made the decision for you and you have no choice, how easy it is to claim you've paid your 'fair share' when the government takes an pre-determined arbitrary percentage from your pay before you even see it, and how convenient the government just happens to know the exact fair share you personally should pay so you needn't contribute a penny more, and so you can shift the responsibility to 'the rich' to make up the shortfall. And so the hypocrisy grates even more when the left tells you to dig deeper as though you're some Scrooge while they themselves also happily wait for the compulsion of the government to force their hand, instead of voluntarily writing a cheque to the NHS they claim to care so much about.
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The Beans
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Re: Obese people banned from routine surgery

Post by The Beans » Sat Sep 10, 2016 2:04 pm

pratty wrote: I wouldn't consider myself right wing or left wing, i'm actually quite liberal yet I find myself compelled to resist the attitudes of the left. Beans has a point, the increased collectivism of the left is by it's nature at odds with diversity. So-called progressive social/political movements are resulting in increased uniformity where it counts; in thoughts and actions, while the left's much championed cause of diversity only addresses the more superficial differences such as skin colour and gender.

We're not at Borg level collectivism yet though, and we won't be with the increased pushback. Those of us resisting leftist collectivist thinking doesn't necessarliy us "right wing" with all the negative connotations of that, such as being a selfish, greedy, war-mongering nazi, it just means you disagree with it. Even those that would happliy bomb ISIS into oblivion don't actually want war, they don't want to conquer anybody, on the contrary they just want to be left alone and get on with their western infidel lives in peace.

It's not that people don't have compassion either, they just want their contributions respected and not taken for granted, and they probably don't appreciate the state's figurative, if not literal, gun to their head for their obedience. And it's the force of the state that backs collectivism and other leftist policies that is the dirty secret the left neglect to mention, sure on the surface it's all presented as 'liberal', caring and non threatening, but behind it is the same jackboot up your ass you get with right wing fascism.

My theory for the left's reliance on the authority of the state is that it relieves them of the same dilema we all face that they won't admit; how much to give to good causes and whether to give at all. How easy it is to preach wealth redistribution when the state has made the decision for you and you have no choice, how easy it is to claim you've paid your 'fair share' when the government takes an pre-determined arbitrary percentage from your pay before you even see it, and how convenient the government just happens to know the exact fair share you personally should pay so you needn't contribute a penny more, and so you can shift the responsibility to 'the rich' to make up the shortfall. And so the hypocrisy grates even more when the left tells you to dig deeper as though you're some Scrooge while they themselves also happily wait for the compulsion of the government to force their hand, instead of voluntarily writing a cheque to the NHS they claim to care so much about.
Ha, I do admire your bottomless willingness to point all this stuff out to the progressives. I envy your energy. I lost the taste for it years ago when the trend from "Let us be equals but Vive la difference!" first started changing into "You will be the same as us or you will be nothing at all" and I realised I was trying to debate with little more than religious cultists so convinced they were right that all the answers to all the problems were always the same - be like them and do as they do.
The hijacking of the word "Diversity" for their non-diverse vision of humanity was a deep irony I would never have believed though. Truly the world is passing strange.
Of course, you do realise you can't say you're not Left or Right anymore? The internet generation is digital in all ways. You can only be a lover or a hater. Nothing else computes. If you don't choose then your stance is chosen for you. It amazes me but there it is.
If it's slower than me, dumber than me and it tastes good ... tough titty.

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Sephiroth81
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Re: Obese people banned from routine surgery

Post by Sephiroth81 » Sat Sep 10, 2016 2:48 pm

pratty wrote:
My theory for the left's reliance on the authority of the state is that it relieves them of the same dilema we all face that they won't admit; how much to give to good causes and whether to give at all. How easy it is to preach wealth redistribution when the state has made the decision for you and you have no choice, how easy it is to claim you've paid your 'fair share' when the government takes an pre-determined arbitrary percentage from your pay before you even see it, and how convenient the government just happens to know the exact fair share you personally should pay so you needn't contribute a penny more, and so you can shift the responsibility to 'the rich' to make up the shortfall. And so the hypocrisy grates even more when the left tells you to dig deeper as though you're some Scrooge while they themselves also happily wait for the compulsion of the government to force their hand, instead of voluntarily writing a cheque to the NHS they claim to care so much about.
By promoting an attitude of altruism from the top, needn't and i'm sure doesn't hold back the rest of the population being charitable on a personal level, but "church-collection plate" politics is even less fair and totally unreliable. The point is to make it reasonable and support positive public services that help everyone equally when they need it. Of course its not always ideal that this often requires wealthier people to contribute more, but that is better than risking the health and lives of poorer people that far outnumber them or taking short term steps disguised as "efficiency savings", when cuts are potentially ruining peoples lives. Does a marginally higher tax rise ruin rich peoples lives? Pain is relative. Hurting a wealthy pocket is annoying or a mere irritant, but not life altering and physically harmful.

The alternative of a private health insurance based system, which treats rich people (who are already lucky to be in that position, in many cases) better than poorer people, it costs more ultimately per person, and is deeply unfair on so many levels, especially when you're denied treatment or cover through little or no fault of your own. I'm not suggesting this is what you're proposing, but I think we're pretty lucky to have the system in place that we do now.

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The Beans
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Re: Obese people banned from routine surgery

Post by The Beans » Sat Sep 10, 2016 4:23 pm

Sephiroth81 wrote:Does a marginally higher tax rise ruin rich peoples lives? Pain is relative. Hurting a wealthy pocket is annoying or a mere irritant, but not life altering and physically harmful.
It wouldn't touch the genuinely "rich" at all. It will absolutely screw plenty of working families over though, just like every other tax rise routinely does.
But then you always seem to think anybody who isn't living a subsistence existence is somehow rich and only got that way through luck and should therefore automatically give more to those you deem are needy. Are you on benefits by any chance? You certainly sound like you are.
If it's slower than me, dumber than me and it tastes good ... tough titty.

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Sephiroth81
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Re: Obese people banned from routine surgery

Post by Sephiroth81 » Sat Sep 10, 2016 5:05 pm

The Beans wrote: It wouldn't touch the genuinely "rich" at all. It will absolutely screw plenty of working families over though, just like every other tax rise routinely does.
But then you always seem to think anybody who isn't living a subsistence existence is somehow rich and only got that way through luck and should therefore automatically give more to those you deem are needy. Are you on benefits by any chance? You certainly sound like you are.
I wasn't talking about the super-elite, so rein it in. Tax rises aren't always screwing working families over, thats an absurd claim just as you making assumptions about my views on wealth. I merely said that for many, luck plays a part in one's fortune (or misfortune) - this is not an outlandish claim. Sure, there are people who work bloody hard and smart, and end up prosperous, but there are also many who put in the same effort and don't end up in that position for a variety of reasons, and for some it doesn't even matter either way.

Well Beans, i'm not a recipient of any benefits, as an unmarried, child-free, higher tax band payer who leads a relatively healthy life who's paid plenty of tax like everyone else on various other goods and services and not taken particularly much back out deemed out of the ordinary. I suppose I had a check up with my GP a few months ago, the bloody scrounger that I am. But there are also few secure jobs these days in uncertain times, so who knows if one day I, or any of us, might need to dip in to the public purse for assistance....and accidents happen and poor health could hit anyone, I could need the NHS. So I'm quite happy to support social and welfare programs which has prevented this country from at least becoming a desperate poor house that we see in many/most countries on the planet. It can't please everyone, I get that, but seriously it could be so so much worse.

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Re: Obese people banned from routine surgery

Post by Shinobi » Sat Sep 10, 2016 6:16 pm

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HalcyonDaze00
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Re: Obese people banned from routine surgery

Post by HalcyonDaze00 » Sun Sep 11, 2016 3:16 am

the NHS now at a tipping point according to reports this morning:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-37331350

other reports a few weeks ago showed that around 23 million people in the UK don't pay any tax

as I said earlier in the thread, the NHS is a crumbling relic that cannot survive in it's current state

it all needs to be privatised or at the very least everybody needs to be paying an additional tax towards it's upkeep.

and if people can't make lifestyle changes - such as not continually filling their mouths with cream cakes - then yes, the struggling Trusts should continue to refuse treatment.

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Re: Obese people banned from routine surgery

Post by pratty » Sun Sep 11, 2016 8:24 am

Before asking (forcing) the public to pay more we should review existing NHS/Government spending to see we where savings can be made and where we can re-allocate existing resources towards the NHS, let's treat it like the priority people say it should be. Let's cut back on foreign aid, on state pomp and ceremony, on wars in the Middle East, on prison comforts, on sports and arts subsidies, and let's decriminalise pot to free up police resources.
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