Obese people banned from routine surgery

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RetroAerosmith
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Re: Obese people banned from routine surgery

Post by RetroAerosmith » Mon Sep 05, 2016 7:47 pm

I thought a forum was a place for the different views on subjects we may have in life, we may agree or disagree but everybodys points should be listened to, challenged if you disagree and give your reasons why. Leaving comments that can be construed as "superior" dont add anything to a discussion. I like to read everyones views on subjects as we live in a varied country.

My views may not be shared by the majority and the scheme that the initial post was about will probably never happen, but im in the thoughts that we need to start clawing back money for the NHS somewhere and the easiest ways should happen first. Some people having gastric band surgery then expect skin tucks on nhs, breast enlargements shouldnt be given on nhs regardless of depression caused, if you want new boobs, youd arrange a bootsale or whatever to fund part of it. Mobility cars? id offer the lowest value vehicles like a 1.0 engine size and thats it...people swanning around in 4x4 if they pay extra on top,madness.

A guy i know who has lived in Australia the passed 2 years, needed a leg operation after a rugby accident, came over Christmas last year and has just bought his return flight back after having his op on NHS in May this year. Had all his shots and injections, dental checkup done before he goes back.

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Sephiroth81
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Re: Obese people banned from routine surgery

Post by Sephiroth81 » Tue Sep 06, 2016 5:09 am

By not treating ALL patients at the point of need, its going against the fundamental principles of the NHS and one of the very few things that other countries envy about the UK. While its not perfect, I'm glad we have it. If its obese people today that are singled out, its drinkers tomorrow, smokers the next day, and gymnasts and cyclists after that and the list of soft targets is potentially endless of how they can wriggle out of paying for treatment and care.

Nobody (or at least its super-rare) sets out to follow a lifestyle that both harms them and with the thought process that this is going to cost the general taxpayer more money down the line, but they don't care because they're surely loving being 40 stone. As a relatively healthy, tax paying individual, I don't get bitter about other people using the system more than I do irrespective of their NHS contributions, or lack of (for starters, I'm just relieved that currently I'm not needing treatment!), as bitterness and resenting others is a pointless and mentally exhausting emotion. As with anything, there are always bad examples which can be used to create a sense of injustice - but these are often rare cases that impact the system in such a negligible way (in the grand scheme of things).

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Re: Obese people banned from routine surgery

Post by RetroAerosmith » Tue Sep 06, 2016 6:30 am

When the NHS was set up the country was a totally different place whether culturally or lifestyle specific. Of all the health problems anyone can think of, the easiest one to deal with that doesnt need medical help or money to deal with, is being overweight. That is where my gripe lies, we are fat because we eat too much. We decide to buy those donuts and drink alcohol on the weekend. Id assume the cost to the nhs whether it be blood pressure pills,gastric bands, painkillers for back/joints etc cost more than a slimfast shake or two.

I may come across as blase' or not understanding medical issues, but i also think those people that abuse nhs staff and amenities while theyre blind drunk also need to be dealt with differently, whether its a one off charge to deal with them at the time.

We need to start somewhere, increasing the price of cigarettes and alcohol doesnt seem to be working so maybe knowing that if you are having an iperation for something, if you are a smoker regardless how heavy a smoker you pay a portion towards the procedure, if your bmi is over a certain percent then again you pay a portion of the procedure you are having.

If your blood alcohol level is more than a certain point then you pay for your nhs help.

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Sephiroth81
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Re: Obese people banned from routine surgery

Post by Sephiroth81 » Tue Sep 06, 2016 6:52 am

RetroAerosmith wrote:When the NHS was set up the country was a totally different place whether culturally or lifestyle specific. Of all the health problems anyone can think of, the easiest one to deal with that doesnt need medical help or money to deal with, is being overweight. That is where my gripe lies, we are fat because we eat too much. We decide to buy those donuts and drink alcohol on the weekend. Id assume the cost to the nhs whether it be blood pressure pills,gastric bands, painkillers for back/joints etc cost more than a slimfast shake or two.

I may come across as blase' or not understanding medical issues, but i also think those people that abuse nhs staff and amenities while theyre blind drunk also need to be dealt with differently, whether its a one off charge to deal with them at the time.

We need to start somewhere, increasing the price of cigarettes and alcohol doesnt seem to be working so maybe knowing that if you are having an iperation for something, if you are a smoker regardless how heavy a smoker you pay a portion towards the procedure, if your bmi is over a certain percent then again you pay a portion of the procedure you are having.

If your blood alcohol level is more than a certain point then you pay for your nhs help.
Hasn't the increase in pricing of cigarettes, along with smoking ban in many public places and general attitude (helped by charities and also NHS marketing warning about the dangers of smoking) reduced the rate of smoking in the UK? I thought it had been cut from about 40% of adults to about 25% or less in this country over the past 15-20 years. Perhaps we should focus our efforts on making healthy eating more affordable by subsidising fruit and veg, and raising taxes on processed food, fast food etc?

I agree with you about abuse on staff due to alcohol abuse, but I'm sure its already not tolerated and often leads to criminal offence and convictions. Its also one of the most physically addictive drugs out there, and is openly promoted by drinks companies and highly endorsed and glamorised by our society (even alcohol overdoses leading to vomiting and horrendous hangovers are laughed off by many). Perhaps a cultural change on alcohol would be welcome, or a ban on advertising (and perhaps levy taxes on cheap booze etc).

There are plenty of solutions to most problems, but given that the NHS only represents about 8-9% of our GDP, which is below other industrialised western countries, perhaps we could invest more into preventions through education, information and financially supporting the consumption of healthy food and drinks (and maybe making it harder to advertise fast food, alcohol and sugary drinks).

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Re: Obese people banned from routine surgery

Post by Antiriad2097 » Tue Sep 06, 2016 6:57 am

Why raise tax on processed and fast food, when it's perfectly acceptable as part of a balanced diet? Penalising everyone else for a few who lack any self control is hardly fair and doesn't resolve the problem.
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Re: Obese people banned from routine surgery

Post by Sephiroth81 » Tue Sep 06, 2016 7:15 am

Antiriad2097 wrote:Why raise tax on processed and fast food, when it's perfectly acceptable as part of a balanced diet? Penalising everyone else for a few who lack any self control is hardly fair and doesn't resolve the problem.
Maybe thats part of the problem, considering it as part of a "balanced diet". Besides, if you only have a McDonalds (for example) once a month or less, then 20p extra on a portion of fries which is additional tax to go specifically into funding better public services, including the NHS, as well as potentially deterring people from eating it more regularly, then it surely can't be all that bad? This tax could help subsidise the genuinely healthy food anyway, so if you're eating a genuinely balanced healthy diet comprising of fresh produce, it could potentially reward you financially by reducing your overall food costs offsetting any small levy on junk food.

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Re: Obese people banned from routine surgery

Post by Antiriad2097 » Tue Sep 06, 2016 7:42 am

It implies that processed and fast food are inherently bad. They aren't. Buy a bun, potatoes, lettuce, tomatoes etc and make a burger. It isn't any better.

Living off the stuff constantly won't do you any good, just as with any restricted diet, especially in large doses.

Making it cheap to buy potatoes for an enormous fry up isn't helping anyone, it'll just annoy the mrs when she has to put more effort into the prep.
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Re: Obese people banned from routine surgery

Post by Sephiroth81 » Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:20 am

Antiriad2097 wrote:It implies that processed and fast food are inherently bad. They aren't. Buy a bun, potatoes, lettuce, tomatoes etc and make a burger. It isn't any better.

Living off the stuff constantly won't do you any good, just as with any restricted diet, especially in large doses.

Making it cheap to buy potatoes for an enormous fry up isn't helping anyone, it'll just annoy the mrs when she has to put more effort into the prep.
That really depends on how you prepare your food. Usually processed food is packed with salt and fat that can be avoided with preparing it yourself. Better food education can be paid for directly out of levying tax on 100% crappy fast and processed food as an example.

Could I make a healthier burger than McDonalds? OF COURSE I CAN! Tastier as well as we're never going to use like-for-like ingredients. Its just a bit of common sense approach here and making us think a bit deeper about what food we make and consume, than seeing incredibly cheap processed or junk food and thinking "well its so cheap and easy so whats the point of cooking". As a society, a bit of price tinkering and education can shift it, even if its just a slight movement towards healthier living, it can make a difference. One only needs to view a carton of soup in a supermarket vs making it yourself - while it may take more time preparing homemade soup and even be more expensive (although that doesn't have to be the case at all), its usually a lot healthier and tastier. That is unless you make the daft choice of pouring salt in like there's no tomorrow!

Personally, I'd much rather see potatoes subsidised, as they are very flexible and can be used in so many healthy dishes. Much rather see them a bit cheaper and a slight rise in the price of a Findus Microwave Meal packed with salt as an example. Even if this doesn't achieve much, it potentially has the other advantage of making food companies think about their food preparation and ingredients and making processed/fast food ultimately healthier for its customers.

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Re: Obese people banned from routine surgery

Post by RetroAerosmith » Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:09 am

At work we are always "forced" to upsell. The odd chocolate bar, sweets or crisps added onto a bill £1 large chocolate bars with the customer saying ..."oooh go on then"

I wemt to Harvester recently for the first time, ordered food and tge first thing the waitress said after i ordered chips was "do you want to go large on the chips for a£1 extra" I only said yes as I was really hungry, when the food came It wasnt masses more chips i dont think and going "large" for an extra quid really isnt a good deal either.

Coming home from London recently stopped in starbucks and again was offered to go a size bigger/extra syrup,can i get you anything else to go with that? a muffin a pannini etc..

In one aspect i think the food companies are trying - reducing sizes reducing salt content etc - using Mcdonalds as a "bad food" option these days isnt really viable as a plain burger and a portion of salad has less fat than most of the sandwiches offered in supermarkets.
Have you seen the fat content in a triple egg and bacon sandwich - 48g. A healthier option of say tuna has 6g, you could have 8 packs of tuna sarnies to equal the same fat content. The amount of truckers i see guts touching tge floor buying their pasties and large mars 2 for 1 promos is vomit inducing, but they serm to think their work is "that" energetic that they need it.

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Re: Obese people banned from routine surgery

Post by Sephiroth81 » Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:17 am

Yea, I think there are probably lots of ways companies could do to try and reduce salt, sugar and calorie intake for its customers, but profit does of course take priority, and they have no incentive currently (as far as i can see) of helping a state owned organisation in the NHS. The endless promotions are indeed tempting though.

I try to avoid BOGOFS when possible!! Unless its for fruit and veg.

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Re: Obese people banned from routine surgery

Post by merman » Tue Sep 06, 2016 11:56 am

OK, all you agreeing with the idea.

In ten years time you develop carpal tunnel syndrome from playing video games.
You need surgery as you can't stand the severe pain.

You are charged £20 a packet of painkillers.*
It costs you £50 to see a doctor, in an effort to get a referral.*
You wait six months for an appointment with a surgeon.
You are charged £250 for the consultation.*

And you are refused surgery because
A) it's your lifestyle that caused it
B) your health insurance does not cover the cost of the procedure.


This is what you will face with a privatised NHS that has the ability to restrict and ration healthcare.



*It's already £30 to see a doctor in the Channel Islands, £10 for a packet of strong painkillers, and more than £200 for a surgical consultation in Harley Street. Those figures could well be higher in future - there's no way they will be lower.
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Re: Obese people banned from routine surgery

Post by Megamixer » Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:43 pm

Question: if the NHS was privatised and we weren't supposed to be contributing towards it with our tax anymore, does anybody REALLY believe that the amount of tax we pay will decrease? It will just be spread out across the other causes.

Just thought I'd throw that out there for the people who seem to think we'd save money or pay less tax with the NHS gone.
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Re: Obese people banned from routine surgery

Post by Antiriad2097 » Tue Sep 06, 2016 2:44 pm

Merman, you missed the bit where if I stop playing games, I get my treatmet free, just like the obese who lose weight will.

This isn't about denial of service, it's about fixing the bigger problem first.
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Re: Obese people banned from routine surgery

Post by Sephiroth81 » Tue Sep 06, 2016 3:09 pm

Antiriad2097 wrote:
This isn't about denial of service, it's about fixing the bigger problem first.
It kind of also is about denial of service and saving money.

I am in full agreement that prevention is a terrific form of medicine (hence why I was bleeting on about investing in educating people on healthy eating and subsidising healthy food), but this isn't prevention, its just denying treatment to people in need and its cruel (and not even to be kind).

The national rate of smoking wouldn't fall through the roof if the NHS announced that anyone with a smoking related illness won't be given treatment. It would fall if we educate people on the massive health impact of smoking, raising the tax/cost of tobacco and banning advertising and smoking in public places - and they did, and as a result, smoking rates have fallen (to about 20%). We should take similar steps about obesity/unhealthy eating and drinking alcohol. This would surely be better as it would be genuine prevention.

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Re: Obese people banned from routine surgery

Post by paranoid marvin » Tue Sep 06, 2016 3:28 pm

Do we stop treating smokers for smoking related illness?

Do we stop treating drinkers for drink related illness?

Do we stop treating people who play sport for sports-related illness?

Where does it all end? As for what is good/bad for you - ask 2 'specialists' and you will likely get 2 different answers. Also what is classed as 'bad' for you today may be seen as good in a few years. All the issue around saturated fats being worse for you, then it turns out they're better? Who knows?

At the end of the day, none of us intentionally want to be ill; and none of us lives the perfect lifestyle that makes us as least likely to require medical treatment.


What we perhaps need is a government-subsidised middle-tier health service, somewhere between private healthcare and the NHS. So those who are prepared to contribute more of their income can receive a better service than those who have contributed less - or nothing. So not getting private rooms or a Herley Street surgeon, just a doctor they can see within a couple of days and the prospect of not having to wait months for surgery. Something that's more affordable than private health care, and which people feel at least they're getting something for rather than just subsiding others.

Because unless something changes significantly, the NHS will be dead within 20 years.
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