Paris under attack

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HalcyonDaze00
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Re: Paris under attack

Post by HalcyonDaze00 » Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:16 pm

another mass grave found:

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle ... -iraq.ashx

around 80 women butchered and buried, those over 40 are killed and the younger ones are enslaved, no doubt they are doing this in protest against western foreign policy......fcuking savages

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Sephiroth81
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Re: Paris under attack

Post by Sephiroth81 » Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:22 pm

HalcyonDaze00 wrote:another mass grave found:

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle ... -iraq.ashx

around 80 women butchered and buried, those over 40 are killed and the younger ones are enslaved, no doubt they are doing this in protest against western foreign policy......fcuking savages
Don't try and twist peoples words. I think many agree that Daesh's very existence is down to western foreign policy (invasion in Iraq, and interfering in other states to try and depose dictators they didn't trade with...Syria/Libya) and very much supported by the arms sold to the region by western countries over the years.

I'm not pro-ISIL, and nobody apart from them is, its disgusting and barbaric what they are doing....but we have to ask how they managed to get there in the first place.

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HalcyonDaze00
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Re: Paris under attack

Post by HalcyonDaze00 » Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:30 pm

they have always been there (under one name or another) and have always hated and wanted to destroy anybody who doesn't share their twisted ideology, western foreign policy is a convenient excuse from handwringers and apologists, utter savages who see everybody else as enemies who must be destroyed, if we (the west) had nothing to do with the entire region they would still want us dead and would still be carrying out acts of pure evil.

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Sephiroth81
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Re: Paris under attack

Post by Sephiroth81 » Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:35 pm

Maybe, maybe not. I think the more stable governments in place prior to American invasions with their British lapdogs holding their bags had these under better control. These countries are now lawless so of course there will be more chaos.

It's not convenient or being an apologist, its stating the obvious.

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HalcyonDaze00
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Re: Paris under attack

Post by HalcyonDaze00 » Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:46 pm

there is no maybe about it, they are nothing new, just a different name.

the advancement of social media and modern communication means they reach out easier than ever before, you have the break up of eastern Europe and the soviet union which has flooded the region with weapons and military grade explosives, how easy it is to cross from one country to the next, lax or non existent border controls, it's a terrorists dream.

whatever the west is doing in the middle east has nothing to do with the fanatical muslims who are basically a death cult, they want it their way and everybody else has to die (in the most gruesome ways possible), perhaps previous middle eastern governments better kept a lid on it but it has always been there and they are not going to go away if the west packs up and goes home, they will still continue to rampage across the region and they will strike us whenever they can.

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The Beans
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Re: Paris under attack

Post by The Beans » Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:57 pm

Sephiroth81 wrote:Maybe, maybe not. I think the more stable governments in place prior to American invasions with their British lapdogs holding their bags had these under better control. These countries are now lawless so of course there will be more chaos.

It's not convenient or being an apologist, its stating the obvious.
It's more like stating the pointless rather than the obvious. Unless you've got a time machine handy, of course. Have you?
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Sephiroth81
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Re: Paris under attack

Post by Sephiroth81 » Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:59 pm

No time machine Beans, but maybe we can try to learn from the past and mistakes.

pratty
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Re: Paris under attack

Post by pratty » Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:01 pm

Absolutely disgusting events in Paris, sickening. "Peace be upon Mohammed..." and sod everyone else apparently. :roll:

The solution of course is simple, stop interfering and seperate ourselves from the ongoing bane of our existance that is the Middle East, let's just leave them to it, let them enjoy their stonings, floggings, honour killings and general bigotry. And while I'm sure there are many good muslims living in the Middle East they'll just have to endure the backward barbaric culture they deserve from their tolerance of it. The West isn't perfect either but I'll take our culture over theirs any day, if that makes me a cultural 'supremicist' then I'm proud of it.

Of course we won't though, essentially for 3 reasons. 1) ecomonics, 2) our 'gentile guilt' (i.e. the protection of Israel, where's Moses' God these days?) and 3) the well intended but hopelessly naive belief of western idealist 'liberals' that we all have to live together as one global nation (the worst idea ever), forcing political/cultural/religious opposites and enemies for generations to co-habit, expecting them to like it, hold hands and sing Kum Ba Yah. The problem isn't borders, you can't put enough borders between good civilised people and any religious fanatical scum.

That said I don't know that the recent immigration is necessarily to blame, it's an idealogical thing so I'm sure France was already host to a significant number of sympathetic muslims down for the Islamic State cause, no doubt we are too, Islamic State probably represent a larger number of Muslims than just those at and traveling to their their camps in the Middle East.

As for domestic communication snooping, it's all well and good and saying it will only be used to hunt terrorists etc, but in some countries simply having a dissenting opinion makes you an 'enemy of the state', it's just one more step down the slippery police state slope. Not to mention, ethics aside, it's expensive and probably ineffecient (looking for a needle in a haystack).
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fredghostmaster
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Re: Paris under attack

Post by fredghostmaster » Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:44 pm

Religion, who needs it? Every religion is basically a cult. Some peaceful, some not so peaceful, all utterly deluded. Praying to some magic man in the sky, when will people grow up? Its a free world, people can believe what they like but when it reaches the stage of if you don't agree to follow our cult and ideology, we will kill you in the most gruesome way we can think of, well, it simply has to be stopped. I lost one of my best friends in the 7/7 bombings, one of the most gentle and harmless souls you could ever meet. Today, 100's more families have been changed forever and for what? We are in a war unlike any we have faced before, with many who wish to kill us already living among us and more joining all the time. Not such a good idea opening our borders to all and sundry in hindsight was it? And still we invite more. Madness.

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Megamixer
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Re: Paris under attack

Post by Megamixer » Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:04 pm

Sephiroth81 wrote:[I'm an idealist though, and wish the world would compromise, not seek revenge, and just accept differences. I don't think the West have been good at that in history or now, and clearly ISIL/Daesh are a new example of another enemy we have also not willing to compromise.
I might be mis-reading this (and I hope I am!) but this sounds like you think the ideal plan is to just ignore ISIS and accept their existence. There is no compromise with 'people' like that. Ignore them and they will gain more territory, more facilities, more hardware and will be harder to get rid of. Really, action should have been taken as soon as they sprang up in 2014 and started capturing cities in Iraq.

There are no 'differences'. They simply want anybody who doesn't agree with their beliefs to be dead and they will keep trying whether they are dealt with or ignored. Unless of course you meant 'differences' in a broader sense relating to racism, differenct cultures etc, in which case I agree. ISIS aren't a country or a unique culture though; they are an organisation that we'd all be better off without.
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silvergunner
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Re: Paris under attack

Post by silvergunner » Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:24 pm

Looks like one of the shooters was 15 :shock:

They certainly know how to brainwash people for their cause, especially to do what they did in such a brutal and calm way with no panic as they knew they were going to die regardless.

It's amazing how these insane thoughts to themselves are actually seen as the sane way of doing things.

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Sephiroth81
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Re: Paris under attack

Post by Sephiroth81 » Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:53 pm

Megamixer wrote:
I might be mis-reading this (and I hope I am!) but this sounds like you think the ideal plan is to just ignore ISIS and accept their existence. There is no compromise with 'people' like that. Ignore them and they will gain more territory, more facilities, more hardware and will be harder to get rid of. Really, action should have been taken as soon as they sprang up in 2014 and started capturing cities in Iraq.

There are no 'differences'. They simply want anybody who doesn't agree with their beliefs to be dead and they will keep trying whether they are dealt with or ignored. Unless of course you meant 'differences' in a broader sense relating to racism, differenct cultures etc, in which case I agree. ISIS aren't a country or a unique culture though; they are an organisation that we'd all be better off without.
No, I have said all along there is no real plan, or at least easy solution that anyone is suggesting, that will work. Bombing them hasn't worked. What may have worked would have been a strong, stable government in Iraq - and when we invaded, we failed Iraq and the region by not having a plan post-invasion. Deadly terrorist attacks are commonplace in Iraq, sometimes more deadly than what happened in Paris yesterday, and yet I don't see anyone changing their facebook profile pictures with a transparent Iraqi flag in "sympathy" - and this is sad, because its actually the west that has failed the Iraqi people.

Iraq, Syria and Libya are now failed states (as is Afghanistan). All 4 have had enormous meddling and interventions from the west (and Russia) and all 4 of them have gone from bad to worse....and in some cases, from a reasonably stable regime with a structure in place, to utter chaos. This chaos has spilled out into Europe and other parts of the world, as this group can recruit fairly easy on the basis that the world has become islamaphobic...even if we try to pretend we aren't. Some of this is of course caused by the negative media.

I fear that more bombs won't solve the problem, and I don't believe the world has suddenly become a safer place because Russia are now joining in the bombings there as well. Its just inspiring more violence.

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HalcyonDaze00
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Re: Paris under attack

Post by HalcyonDaze00 » Sat Nov 14, 2015 6:54 pm

we should give them the land they have taken in Syria, let them have their caliphate, one time offer of free and safe passage to anybody who wants in (and that includes their supporters here or across Europe ), and then leave them to it.

no involvement, no trade, they live off the land however they can, nobody gets out and they can do as they please in their own little kingdom of twisted ideology.

psj3809
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Re: Paris under attack

Post by psj3809 » Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:10 pm

Ignoring them would be the worst thing. Even if we left any foreign land etc you know in xx amount of months or years they would surely look to acquire nuclear material and do something huge. These fanatics need to be destroyed ASAP.

As for meddling in the Middle East blame Blair and his cronies for that. Even worse after the Iraq war people still voted in labour despite the huge mess in Iraq. Disgusting. Should never have been kept in power solely due to Iraq

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Sephiroth81
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Re: Paris under attack

Post by Sephiroth81 » Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:37 pm

psj3809 wrote: As for meddling in the Middle East blame Blair and his cronies for that. Even worse after the Iraq war people still voted in labour despite the huge mess in Iraq. Disgusting. Should never have been kept in power solely due to Iraq
I don't wish this to turn once again into a party political mud slinging match, as I've already called out Blair and the Labour party on this as well, but at that time the main opposition to the Iraq war was basically labour back benchers (including Corbyn) and the liberal democrats. The conservatives and "New Labour" were all lapping it up and begging to work "shoulder to shoulder" alongside the yanks, and voted overwhelmingly in favour of it, with absolutely no suggestion that a tory government at the time would have steered clear of it. We should have voted the Liberal Democrats in 2005 (by your rationale), because they were the only major party fully opposing the war....except you probably voted the same war mongering conservative party instead (please correct me if I'm wrong in assuming where your vote lay back in 2005).

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