Paris under attack

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Sephiroth81
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Re: Paris under attack

Post by Sephiroth81 » Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:55 pm

gman72 wrote:
pratty wrote:
So maybe it's time the major religions of the world, namely Judeo-Chrisitanity and Islam, should just come clean.
How will this in practical terms stop ISIS from killing westerners in terror attacks?
If people all over the world suddenly realised that there is no god/afterlife or divine intervention, miracles etc....then why would, for example, ISIL members blow themselves up in the name of allah?

It may cause other side effects and problems, but it would almost certainly end ISIL as thats the big part of their recruitment drive - allah, the afterlife/martyrdom etc.

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Re: Paris under attack

Post by gman72 » Wed Nov 18, 2015 6:01 pm

It's just pie in the sky fuzzy thinking though isn't it?
How on Earth can you get all the religions of the world to denounce their beliefs simultaneously?
That's a solution, sure, but it's utterly impractical and impossible to achieve.

You might as well say lets breed a race of half human/fish hybrids that fart pure love to infiltrate all the nations of the world and breed peace and harmony. I realise, pratty, that I'm being sarcastic but I'm talking about practical solutions here.
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pratty
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Re: Paris under attack

Post by pratty » Wed Nov 18, 2015 6:02 pm

gman72 wrote:
pratty wrote:
So maybe it's time the major religions of the world, namely Judeo-Chrisitanity and Islam, should just come clean.
How will this in practical terms stop ISIS from killing westerners in terror attacks?
By discreding their religious motive and justification. It's merely just one potential action and one aimed at the root of the problem, obviously we still have to tackle the branches, but so many people here seem to be concluding there is no way to stop ISIS in purely practical terms, if that's the case perhaps taking the phillospical approach is all we have left. :|
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gman72
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Re: Paris under attack

Post by gman72 » Wed Nov 18, 2015 6:06 pm

pratty wrote:
gman72 wrote:
pratty wrote:
So maybe it's time the major religions of the world, namely Judeo-Chrisitanity and Islam, should just come clean.
How will this in practical terms stop ISIS from killing westerners in terror attacks?
By discreding their religious motive and justification. It's merely just one potential action and one aimed at the root of the problem, obviously we still have to tackle the branches, but so many people here seem to be concluding there is no way to stop ISIS in purely practical terms, if that's the case perhaps taking the phillospical approach is all we have left. :|
So, are you effectively saying that we should simply say sorry about the last 2000 years. We now accept that god is a man made concept and expect you to do the same. Shall we all be friends now

With respect it's not really a plan.
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Re: Paris under attack

Post by Negative Creep » Wed Nov 18, 2015 6:25 pm

Ultimately how ISIS came to be is irrelevant now, the only question is how we deal with them. All these pictures and memes floating around about fighting hatred are all well and good, but this isn't a group like the IRA or ETA who can be negotiated with because the have a limited political aim. This is a group that massacres entire villages, systematically rapes young girls, publicly beheads aid workers, throws homosexuals off buildings, burns prisoners alive (something even Al Qaeda condemned) and whose only goal is worldwide domination. A group whose members have no fear of death and no concept of the Geneva Convention or rules of engagement. We may have differing views but we can be sure they despise us both equally because we don't conform to their ultra strict version of Islam.

So how do we negotiate with a group like this? Simple answer is that you can't. We have to cut their sources of funding but also break their military strength, and air power alone can't do this. Whatever the solution, it's going to involve a lot of bloodshed and collateral damage.
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pratty
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Re: Paris under attack

Post by pratty » Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:01 pm

pratty wrote:
By discreding their religious motive and justification. It's merely just one potential action and one aimed at the root of the problem, obviously we still have to tackle the branches, but so many people here seem to be concluding there is no way to stop ISIS in purely practical terms, if that's the case perhaps taking the phillospical approach is all we have left. :|
gman72 wrote:So, are you effectively saying that we should simply say sorry about the last 2000 years. We now accept that god is a man made concept and expect you to do the same. Shall we all be friends now

With respect it's not really a plan.
I didn't say it's the only plan, there's no reason why there has to only be one single all-fixing solution.

And no I'm not suggesting for one second we be friends with ISIS. I'm not especially interested with being friends with the entire Middle East region, being friends isn't necessary to respect their existance, or tolerate a religion I don't agree with. Even if we were able to find a diplomatic solution to the political grievences that motivate ISIS those responsible for the atrocities they have commited still need to pay for what they've done.

I certainly feel reducing the religious influence on terroism would help, obviously it's a long term strategy. It's about time these religions admitted they weren't on the up and up anyway. Non-Christians/Muslims have been caught up in religious fueled fighting for too long, not just Islamic flavoured terrorism from the Middle East, but all the Catholic/Protestant crap aswell.

It's about time there was objective education about religion, but you don't get TV shows on mainstream TV giving the alternative history of these religions because it's considered offensive to believers, and so nobody with a religious inclination questions what's taught from Mecca or Rome etc, laying the foundation of unquestionable truth to be abused by politically motivated extremism.

I think a swelling of public opinion from the ground up, where people can openly talk in the public sphere about the self evident holes and inconsistancies in both Judeo-Christianity and Islam, would make the traditional asertions of these religions increasingly farcical in the face of the now widely known origins of their religions.

Bombing ISIS out of existance is very tempting too, but it only takes one civilain casualty to complicate that idea (and villainise the West even more), and there's no guarantee their ideology will die with them. Not saying we shouldn't do it but even if we do I think we still need to do more. There are multiple reasons why ISIS does what it does, so I don't see why there can't be multiple solutions.
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gman72
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Re: Paris under attack

Post by gman72 » Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:26 pm

Negative Creep wrote:Ultimately how ISIS came to be is irrelevant now, the only question is how we deal with them. All these pictures and memes floating around about fighting hatred are all well and good, but this isn't a group like the IRA or ETA who can be negotiated with because the have a limited political aim. This is a group that massacres entire villages, systematically rapes young girls, publicly beheads aid workers, throws homosexuals off buildings, burns prisoners alive (something even Al Qaeda condemned) and whose only goal is worldwide domination. A group whose members have no fear of death and no concept of the Geneva Convention or rules of engagement. We may have differing views but we can be sure they despise us both equally because we don't conform to their ultra strict version of Islam.

So how do we negotiate with a group like this? Simple answer is that you can't. We have to cut their sources of funding but also break their military strength, and air power alone can't do this. Whatever the solution, it's going to involve a lot of bloodshed and collateral damage.
Definitely agree with this. A sensible and down to earth appraisal of the situation. I think there is no simple solution to this but whatever they do It's gonna hurt everyone involved one way or another. Like Negative Creep says the origin of ISIS is irrelevant now. Fact is both ISIS and portions of the western world are now fighting each other and if it goes on for much longer then the question of who started it will be irrelevant too, it will just be a war. Personally it is my belief that it's going to get worse before it gets any better.

So, what do we have now? Let's say that this forum represents a cross section of public opinion. What options are we presented with in terms of what should we do?

1.The sit back and let nature take its course option. We should not let violence begat violence, pose no restrictions on anything and carry on as we are hoping that the issue will work itself out. Possibly throw a solution in the mix such as let's all denounce religion and be friends.

2. We hit them back hard. Live by the sword die by the sword. Break their military power, bomb them into submission, send in troops, kill their leaders at home and abroad and their foot soldiers foreign and domestic. Place restrictions, close borders, gather data. At the risk of losing innocent lives on all sides but ultimately driving ISIS back to the dark ages for the next few years. Yes, it wont eradicate them and yes, they will return, but when they do we hit them again.

Now before I'm verbally raped I know there is far more detail on both options there, or maybe a middle ground between the two, or maybe more options entirely and, yes, I am playing armchair politics here, but I just wanted to get the debate back on mission. What do we think?

For me personally It's option 2 all day.
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Sephiroth81
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Re: Paris under attack

Post by Sephiroth81 » Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:35 pm

Cue dramatic media footage of aircraft carriers, and warships leaving ports, fighter jets taking off, then random scenes of targets being hit from black/white aerial footage....good old jingoism and the gutter media fully backing it! WARRRR! (REVENGE!)

This "war on terror" since 2001 hasn't quite gone to plan.

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Re: Paris under attack

Post by silvergunner » Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:42 pm

stvd wrote:
silvergunner wrote: Pretty shocking that. I did not realise that had happened.

Saying that looking back over the years and a quick google will tell you that Greece has a fair few problems with racism in sport. Football mainly.
Did you watch it? It was the Turkish fans chanting.
In Turkey (especially at football matches) a one minute silence is always used to chant for those who died in terrorist attacks.
No I concede that I only saw the youtube link that was posted not the full game itself. Both countries are a hotbed for racism in football at times though.

Either way regardless which side was the offending perpetrator it was a sad state of affairs.

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Re: Paris under attack

Post by DPrinny » Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:04 am

gman72 wrote: How on Earth can you get all the religions of the world to denounce their beliefs simultaneously?

Aliens? They come down and say "That was our fault"

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The Beans
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Re: Paris under attack

Post by The Beans » Thu Nov 19, 2015 4:31 am

Sephiroth81 wrote:Cue dramatic media footage of aircraft carriers, and warships leaving ports, fighter jets taking off, then random scenes of targets being hit from black/white aerial footage....good old jingoism and the gutter media fully backing it! WARRRR! (REVENGE!)

This "war on terror" since 2001 hasn't quite gone to plan.
If the war on terror hasn't gone to plan it's because it's been half-arsed and hampered by people such as yourself who always hold it back. We're seeing exactly the same tiresome dithering over ISIL, an implacable enemy that will never stop. The squeamish liberals who shy away from what needs to be done, and the human cost involved, by clinging to the unrealistic hope that everybody in the world suddenly starts holding hands are doing what they always do - delaying required action while the enemy grows stronger.

When one side wants a war then there's going to be a war, however much the other side wishes it wasn't so. The longer everybody pisses about the worse it will be when it lands.
If it's slower than me, dumber than me and it tastes good ... tough titty.

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Sephiroth81
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Re: Paris under attack

Post by Sephiroth81 » Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:42 am

The Beans wrote:
If the war on terror hasn't gone to plan it's because it's been half-arsed and hampered by people such as yourself who always hold it back. We're seeing exactly the same tiresome dithering over ISIL, an implacable enemy that will never stop. The squeamish liberals who shy away from what needs to be done, and the human cost involved, by clinging to the unrealistic hope that everybody in the world suddenly starts holding hands are doing what they always do - delaying required action while the enemy grows stronger.

When one side wants a war then there's going to be a war, however much the other side wishes it wasn't so. The longer everybody pisses about the worse it will be when it lands.
Beans you are so cute when you are on a rant and blame liberals. Your exaggerations are amazing, perhaps I could try it out.....ok, what we SHOULD have done in the war on terror (because carpet bombing, killing mainly civilians and invading 2 countries by ground and air, and torturing people wasn't enough) is nuked the entire region. Problem solved. The United States was simply too soft, under the Bush administration and ever since. Trillions of dollars well spent.

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gman72
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Re: Paris under attack

Post by gman72 » Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:49 am

War rarely goes to plan, it's the nature of the beast. It's why it's called war. We all know the war on terror was originally founded on a lie created by Bush and Blair.
Saddam and his weapons of mass destruction.

That was then.

I was under the impression that intelligence gathered during this war against terror has helped foil many many attacks in different countries, attacks which would have cost more innocent lives if left unchecked.


9/11 was not a lie. 7/7 was not a lie. Passenger Jet bombings, beheading hostages, massacres, shootings etc and all the other atrocities ISIS has caused are not lies. It is the here and it is real.

This is the now and it is not a lie. It is real and it is happening on our doorsteps. Stop living in the mire of past mistakes. Pull your heads out for a moment and smell the cordite and blood on the air.

Do nothing and let terror come to your door. Or, support the fight, take it to them, hit back with unity - which is apparently what ISIS is most afraid of.
“To gain your own voice, you have to forget about having it heard.” —Allen Ginsberg, WD

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RodimusPrime
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Re: Paris under attack

Post by RodimusPrime » Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:49 am

The Beans wrote:
Sephiroth81 wrote:Cue dramatic media footage of aircraft carriers, and warships leaving ports, fighter jets taking off, then random scenes of targets being hit from black/white aerial footage....good old jingoism and the gutter media fully backing it! WARRRR! (REVENGE!)

This "war on terror" since 2001 hasn't quite gone to plan.
If the war on terror hasn't gone to plan it's because it's been half-arsed and hampered by people such as yourself who always hold it back. We're seeing exactly the same tiresome dithering over ISIL, an implacable enemy that will never stop. The squeamish liberals who shy away from what needs to be done, and the human cost involved, by clinging to the unrealistic hope that everybody in the world suddenly starts holding hands are doing what they always do - delaying required action while the enemy grows stronger.

When one side wants a war then there's going to be a war, however much the other side wishes it wasn't so. The longer everybody pisses about the worse it will be when it lands.

This, remember when someone would attack someone in school and unless you were happy to get assaulted you had to defend yourself.

then the idiot liberal teachers would punish both parties and say something stupid like " well it takes two people to start a fight " or " you could have walked away "

Bit hard to walk away when someone is punching and kicking you and determined to do harm, and at some point you have to defend yourself.

those teachers did not live in the real worls, they are wishy washy fanatasists and they always strike me as the kind of idiots that think we can all be friends and don't need to deal with terrorists.

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Sephiroth81
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Re: Paris under attack

Post by Sephiroth81 » Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:17 am

The forum pack joins forces once again with war mongering and offering the lives of innocent civilians, and the lives of soldiers, billions/trillions of dollars, from all sides in a bid to make them feel safe because they live in such fear in England! Theres a shocker. "Three Amigos", you may feel I am predictable, but I can say the exact same for you three. As a foursome - we are like clockwork! :mrgreen:

Terrorism happens, and foiling terrorist plots is indeed worth doing (and bumping up intelligence/policing etc), but dropping bombs doesn't solve this issue - it never did in the past. There is a strong possibility that 220+ Russian citizens died because of Russias decision to bomb Syria - that is on top of the potentially hundreds of innocent civilians caught up in their actions, just as the same with French warplanes dropping bombs.

I think some people frankly just "get off" on war and the media coverage of it (like the jets taking off - its brainless jingoism), rather than considering its short and long term consequences. The UK has rarely taken a peaceful and diplomatic route for whatever reasons, and we are a target - should we be surprised that we've not quite cracked the "terrorist" conundrum yet, despite waging all our wars on terror?

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