Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

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Independant Scotland?

Poll ended at Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:22 am

YES!
14
23%
NO!
37
62%
No Opinion
9
15%
 
Total votes: 60

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rossi46
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by rossi46 » Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:27 am

joefish wrote: And it's also easily forgotten that, apart from the density of its major cities, Scotland is a sparesly populated part of the UK with a disproportionately high dependence on state aid.
Yes, they should know their place. How dare they think they're important enough to have their own sovereignty and make their own decisions.
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by Matt_B » Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:41 am

Scotland may indeed be in for some lean years after independence, but I'm sure a lot of people would consider that a price worth paying to be rid of the Tories forever.

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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by gunbladelad » Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:38 am

There's actually a key difference between the "yes " and "no" campaigns.

The "no" campaign is essentially just constantly scaremongering by claiming pretty much every disaster imaginable is going to happen if Scotland votes "yes" - not only that but in every single case where they've made these claims, they've not provided a single credible source that can be independently checked.

The "yes" campaign - rather than being driven by politicians trying to tell us "what's best for us" - is increasingly comprised of ordinary people sharing publicly available information that can be checked up on. Simply put, those with more information to hand are starting to fall firmly into the "yes" camp.

It was actually a "better together" leaflet that convinced me that the only right vote will be "yes" - The fact that David Cameron has abandoned Prime Minister's Questions today to come up here not only shows desperation at the possibility of Westminster's cash cow standing up for itself, but he's also showing contempt for the rest of the UK in doing so.

Here's 2 images - both maps of the UK - that show pretty much how Scotland - in reality - is subsidizing the rest of the UK.

Image Image

Why is Scotland (and most of the north of England) so poor if it has the highest GDP of the UK? Massive taxation. Scots pay more in tax per person than the rest of the UK does - yet we get a pittance back.
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Matt_B
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by Matt_B » Wed Sep 10, 2014 12:22 pm

gunbladelad wrote:Why is Scotland (and most of the north of England) so poor if it has the highest GDP of the UK? Massive taxation. Scots pay more in tax per person than the rest of the UK does - yet we get a pittance back.
The main reason household wealth is lower in Scotland is that houses are cheaper there, and for most families it's property that makes up the bulk of their wealth.

As for why the GDP is higher, that's pretty much down to oil revenues. Take them out of the equation and Scotland is about the same as the rest of the UK.

Anyway, what's so bad about earning more money and having to spend less on housing? :D

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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by the_hawk » Wed Sep 10, 2014 12:50 pm

gunbladelad wrote:There's actually a key difference between the "yes " and "no" campaigns.

The "no" campaign is essentially just constantly scaremongering by claiming pretty much every disaster imaginable is going to happen if Scotland votes "yes" - not only that but in every single case where they've made these claims, they've not provided a single credible source that can be independently checked.

The "yes" campaign - rather than being driven by politicians trying to tell us "what's best for us" - is increasingly comprised of ordinary people sharing publicly available information that can be checked up on. Simply put, those with more information to hand are starting to fall firmly into the "yes" camp.
Funny that, as the vast majority of "Yes" arguments I've heard & read have been borderline xenophobic rants about the English & kicking the Tories out, yet the majority of "No" arguments I've read & heard about appear to be based on sound economic reasoning.

gunbladelad wrote:he fact that David Cameron has abandoned Prime Minister's Questions today to come up here not only shows desperation at the possibility of Westminster's cash cow standing up for itself
I've read this sort of opinion a LOT in the last few days, "oh if Scotland cannot provide wealth on it's own why are English politicians so keen on keeping us?"

Er, perhaps because the Union is like you know MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL and the amount of uneconomic duplication of resources a split would involve, not to mention the countless millions wasted on admin would be worth fighting to keep the Union for alone.
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by gunbladelad » Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:08 pm

The fact of the matter is - everyone who's going out and doing their own research rather than listening to the media are starting to shift over to "yes".

Just looking at the tax revenue intake and what gets dished out - over the last 50+ years - then it becomes clear that there's nothing beneficial in the union for Scotland. All the economic reports that can be checked up independently say that Scotland will be better off going solo. Westminster and the "Better Together" lot haven't provided a single verifiable source for their "economic data" - and what little they've provided have had key data missing in a bid to mislead the population.
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by Antiriad2097 » Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:45 pm

Sounds like more gullible people are falling for the nonsense the Yes campaigners are spouting. Misrepresented statistics and rumour mostly. Or just No voters telling people who ask 'Yes' to shut them up, as they seem to be so incredibly vocal about sharing their misinformation.
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by Mayhem » Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:54 pm

gunbladelad wrote:Why is Scotland (and most of the north of England) so poor if it has the highest GDP of the UK? Massive taxation. Scots pay more in tax per person than the rest of the UK does - yet we get a pittance back.
Oil revenues in Scotland, Russian billionaires et al in London. But for slightly more ordinary people, the wealth WILL be made up on house values, and down here in the south, houses are worth more due to demand.
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by Antiriad2097 » Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:35 pm

gunbladelad wrote:Scots pay more in tax per person than the rest of the UK does - yet we get a pittance back.
Did you miss the bit about the massive subsidies we have?

Makes no odds to me whether Government is in London, Edinburgh or Glasgow. Each of those has an agenda so far removed from where I live, it's all the same. It's inevitable that Scottish politics would be driven by Glasgow. It happens already, and I don't like it.

If we're going down a separatist route, I'll stick to my region and the rest of you can fend for yourselves. We have all the money round our way. Its us that have property prices on a par with London.
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by r0jaws » Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:57 pm

gunbladelad wrote:...It was actually a "better together" leaflet that convinced me that the only right vote will be "yes"....
I am curious, you've mentioned this twice now. Which leaflet was this, and what were it's contents that convinced you to vote Yes?

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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by the_hawk » Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:20 pm

Those maps are hilarious, I particularly like the way the GDP one is split into smaller regions so there are more darker areas where the towns & cities are, whereas the distribution of wealth one covers the whole of Scotland, so the vast barren highlands are included with Glasgow, Edinburgh and Stirling.

Also why pick a figure close to a million quid for the 2nd map? Of course the very wealthiest people live in the south, that's where all the million pound+ houses are. I'd be more interested in seeing one that tells me the percentage of people with a net worth of say 200k plus, split into regions like the GDP one.

Any maps to show the cost of living compared to the average income or the industrial and commercial development zones subsidised by the UK government?
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by Megamixer » Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:43 pm

How would citizenship work under the 'Yes' vote? Would you have to have been born in Scotland? What about if you were born in England then moved to Scotland while it was still a part of the UK?
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by Nemesis » Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:59 pm

Antiriad2097 wrote:
gunbladelad wrote:Scots pay more in tax per person than the rest of the UK does - yet we get a pittance back.
Did you miss the bit about the massive subsidies we have?

Makes no odds to me whether Government is in London, Edinburgh or Glasgow. Each of those has an agenda so far removed from where I live, it's all the same. It's inevitable that Scottish politics would be driven by Glasgow. It happens already, and I don't like it.

If we're going down a separatist route, I'll stick to my region and the rest of you can fend for yourselves. We have all the money round our way. Its us that have property prices on a par with London.
Ant, you're restoring my faith in the Scottish people beyond some of the English hating Scot Nats that have blighted this referendum. The subsidies are a key point I feel in terms of the SNP constantly saying that Scotland is being "oppressed" by a Tory govt. Prescription charges, which I have to pay for, once for myself and then some of my tax paid goes to a subsidised prescription charge north of the border. Not to mention tuition fees, and a monetary contribution for care of OAP's that we don't get down in England. The SNP are promising a more fair and just society which is a load of bull twaddle. Scotland isn't oppressed, or a battered housewife in a marriage with an abusive English husband.

What the SNP are saying is that "we don't want the Tories". However, the Union is much more than just the Tories and plenty of Scots have voted in Labour governments before. If you always got what you voted for, it would no longer be a democracy. I can't say I have a high opinion of politicians and it is hard to identify with them when they come from privileged backgrounds. I'm certain many English, Welsh and N.Irish people feel the same too.

The news that the three horsemen of the apocalypse are descending on Scotland with their begging bowls is making matters worse for rest of the UK. If a "no" vote wins, then it looks like more English (& possibly Welsh/N.Irish) taxes will be subsidising additional sweeteners for Scotland.
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by rossi46 » Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:27 pm

Nemesis wrote: Ant, you're restoring my faith in the Scottish people beyond some of the English hating Scot Nats that have blighted this referendum.
It's got nothing to do with 'English hating Nats' and everything about letting the Scottish people make their own decisions for themselves. The argument has gone way beyond removing Tories and other tosh like that. It's about voting to live in a progressive, more liberal society. One where the Scots get to make the rules we live by.
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by Nemesis » Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:40 pm

rossi46 wrote:
Nemesis wrote: Ant, you're restoring my faith in the Scottish people beyond some of the English hating Scot Nats that have blighted this referendum.
It's got nothing to do with 'English hating Nats' and everything about letting the Scottish people make their own decisions for themselves. The argument has gone way beyond removing Tories and other tosh like that. It's about voting to live in a progressive, more liberal society. One where the Scots get to make the rules we live by.
It certainly hasn't had that appearance down here I have to say. However, I do believe in the right to self determination, therefore, if that's what the majority of Scots want then so be it. I'm not sure about "progressive" though, that sounds like business talk, or bullsh@t bingo to office types.
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