Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

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Independant Scotland?

Poll ended at Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:22 am

YES!
14
23%
NO!
37
62%
No Opinion
9
15%
 
Total votes: 60

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crusto
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by crusto » Fri Sep 19, 2014 6:26 pm

What, with it being inhabited by tax dodging billionaires and trough snouting mp's I doubt it is as cut and dried as you would expect.
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r0jaws
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by r0jaws » Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:52 pm

Matt_B wrote:
r0jaws wrote:Now, I understand the need for areas to have increased spending in regions due to the nature of their location and particular needs, but the fact that London, which already benefits from a whole host of advantages also gets around a £1000 per head more than the rest of the English regions is a disgrace. As I mentioned earlier, the East Midlands and East Anglia are struggling with poor infrastructure and increased population burdens, and you can see why there is no money. It's all being spent on flipping cable cars over the Thames. :evil:
For what it's worth, the cable car mostly was paid for out of sponsor's money and an EU grant with the balance coming in receipts from fares.

As for why London gets a bigger spend than the regions, the fact that everything costs more here generally might have something to do with it. And it's not like the capital doesn't make a significantly larger contribution to the country's tax coffers either.
The cable car was just something I plucked out of the air simply because it is an example of the most ridiculous flights of fancy and wastes of resources that London can afford to flout, that the rest of the country can only dream about having. FFS the 3 biggest towns in Lincolnshire, Grantham, Boston and Lincoln have been fighting for years to get a sodding bypass and are turned down on a depressingly regular basis.
Despite being one of the largest counties in the country, there are 22 miles of dual carriageway in the whole County! There's more Dual carriageway around Crawley than the whole of sodding Lincolnshire.
I think you'll find that Lincolnshire on it's own contributes far more to your plate than you expect too. Yet as a county receives nearly the lowest level of funding in England. It has significant problems with coping with immigration, due to a large influx of EU workforce, yet no increase in Health, Education or infrastructure spending leading to a disgraceful increase in popularity for UKIP and other right wing parties.
London seems to "share" UK resources a great deal more than any other part of the nation. Hence the anger and resentment that has been building all over the UK about the way this country is weighted. If it costs more to live in London, you only have to look to your fellow Londoners to see why. The rest of the UK manages without London prices, but it is Londoner's themselves who slap on a mark up for being in the capital.
People in the rest of the UK are sick to death of seeing yet more London centric policies and projects being proposed and supported while the rest of us pick up the crumbs.

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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by merman » Sat Sep 20, 2014 8:19 am

r0jaws wrote:If Westminster go back on the deal, then I think they should re-run the referendum. :evil:
Cameron said no re-runs. Must have been crossing his fingers behind his back when he offered new powers to Scotland. Even dafter, he stood up and announced his "new powers for Wales, Northern Ireland and England" yesterday he had not even talked to Cabinet colleagues about it.

He really is a headless chicken of a leader, steered by lobbyists and corporate donors to do what they want.
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by Antiriad2097 » Sat Sep 20, 2014 8:54 am

He knows he can say what he wants as he won't be in power long nough to follow through.
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Nemesis
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by Nemesis » Sat Sep 20, 2014 12:51 pm

merman wrote:
r0jaws wrote:If Westminster go back on the deal, then I think they should re-run the referendum. :evil:
Cameron said no re-runs. Must have been crossing his fingers behind his back when he offered new powers to Scotland. Even dafter, he stood up and announced his "new powers for Wales, Northern Ireland and England" yesterday he had not even talked to Cabinet colleagues about it.

He really is a headless chicken of a leader, steered by lobbyists and corporate donors to do what they want.
Funnily enough, I swear I heard in connection with no re-runs, that that agreement was made with Salmond but that it would not be binding on his successor. Perhaps, this was partly why he stepped down so that NS could take up the baton and perhaps force another referendum within a few years. However, if that came to pass, you can be sure that DC or whoever is in govt, won't agree to the conditions set by AS for the last referendum.
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Matt_B
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by Matt_B » Sat Sep 20, 2014 2:12 pm

r0jaws wrote:The cable car was just something I plucked out of the air simply because it is an example of the most ridiculous flights of fancy and wastes of resources that London can afford to flout, that the rest of the country can only dream about having. FFS the 3 biggest towns in Lincolnshire, Grantham, Boston and Lincoln have been fighting for years to get a sodding bypass and are turned down on a depressingly regular basis.
Despite being one of the largest counties in the country, there are 22 miles of dual carriageway in the whole County! There's more Dual carriageway around Crawley than the whole of sodding Lincolnshire.
I think you'll find that Lincolnshire on it's own contributes far more to your plate than you expect too. Yet as a county receives nearly the lowest level of funding in England. It has significant problems with coping with immigration, due to a large influx of EU workforce, yet no increase in Health, Education or infrastructure spending leading to a disgraceful increase in popularity for UKIP and other right wing parties.
London seems to "share" UK resources a great deal more than any other part of the nation. Hence the anger and resentment that has been building all over the UK about the way this country is weighted. If it costs more to live in London, you only have to look to your fellow Londoners to see why. The rest of the UK manages without London prices, but it is Londoner's themselves who slap on a mark up for being in the capital.
People in the rest of the UK are sick to death of seeing yet more London centric policies and projects being proposed and supported while the rest of us pick up the crumbs.
I can tell you picked it out of thin air as it's a terrible example to give, seeing as not a penny of tax-payer's money went on it.

Anyway, I think you're just seeing the grass greener on the other side. London might get some big infrastructure projects but the road and rail services remain massively congested and underfunded; I'm pretty sure if you had to try using them for a few months on a regular basis you'd agree that they need more money, not less.

And you've got to be joking about immigration. London has more immigrants than the rest of the UK combined and it's not like we get any more money to deal with them.

Similarly, London business are generally competitive and operate on much lower margins than the rest of the UK. However, they can't change the fact that property price and rents are high here, and while more people want to live in the capital there's not much than can be done about that. This isn't North Korea where the government can just fix the price of everything.

And yes, I'm sure lots of people do think that London gets too much, but I doubt they've made more than a cursory look at how it gets spent.

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r0jaws
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by r0jaws » Sat Sep 20, 2014 7:11 pm

My heart bleeds for poor old London.
Having just looked up the costing of the Emirates Air Line, it appears that £24 million did come from the Tax payer due to budget over-run. Also the fact that this under-used white elephant took funding from the European Regional Development Fund, when much more worthwhile projects need desperate funding is a Joke. Can you not see the ridiculousness of the project? The fact that London is so overburdened with things to waste it's money on, it can throw it away on rubbish like this. It is inconceivable that anywhere else, except for London, could have got the go ahead for it.

As to immigration, The regions have high proportional levels of immigration too. Boston's population has increased by 15%, mostly from Eastern Europe and Poland in the last couple of years, however funding for Lincolnshire has not changed. If London had a 15% increase in population over the same time period, you would have heard the indignant squeals of the hipster middle classes in Newcastle.
Also, of interest is this...

Image

From a recent Guardian report HERE London gets 24 times the infrastructure spend than the North east, and several multiples of the rest of the regions too.

London is clearly a "special" case, it may bring in cash, but it quite happily spends it like water too.
I used to live in Crawley, and still have family there. I know that London has huge population density, and the place is a pain in the @rse to get around, but so are most places in the country. It does not justify London leeching the vast majority of the budget for itself. Like I've said numerous times before, if HS2 was a fast rail link between Manchester and Glasgow only, with no London involvement, then it wouldn't even have got off the drawing board. The only reason there is an obscene amount of cash being thrown at it, is because London is involved, yet again. It's supposed to be bringing prosperity to the North, but it's just a way for the Govt to access a cheap workforce to feed the ever increasing needs of the capital.

To you it's justified, but London's growth and prosperity comes at the expense of the other regions in the UK, and it doesn't spread far from the capital either.

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crusto
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by crusto » Sat Sep 20, 2014 7:25 pm

And of course there was the Wembley saga. A fantastic opportunity to move the national stadium to the centre of the country, right in the middle of the motorway and rail networks and what do they do? Rebuild in the defunct shithole trading estate they demolished it on in the first place. Give me one good reason for why it wasn't wasn't built elsewhere?

London has and always will be unfairly favoured over other areas. Of course there are justifications for some things. But there are plainly other motives too.
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Matt_B
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by Matt_B » Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:31 am

Meh. Government spending in London is only about 80% of what it receives in tax receipts from the capital. It's subsidizing the rest of the country, not the other way around.

And you obviously missed the part about the overrun for the Emirates Air Line being funded out of fares. Indeed I'd much rather see the money spent on improving overcrowded commuter services - both in London and elsewhere, but the bulk of them are in London - than on vanity projects and tourist attractions, but if it's ultimately not going to cost me a penny I'm not that fussed.

HS2 is indeed a white elephant, but then again it'll probably never get built. However, they really do need to improve the London-Birmingham line as it's the UK's most crowded inter-city service.

And come on. London has 2.8 million immigrants - excluding illegals and naturalized British citizens - and double the rate of population growth of the rest of the UK. The idea that anywhere else in the country is being stretched anything like as much simply doesn't wash.

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r0jaws
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by r0jaws » Sun Sep 21, 2014 6:26 pm

...and there's the problem, it simply doesn't wash, to a Londoner.
The fact is, the UK is more than just the capital, and the rest of the UK has problems of equal importance to London too. Immigration is not solely a "London only" issue. Unfortunately, the South east corner is full of people who cannot see anything beyond the big smoke, and it shows.
Have you ever been to Boston, Wolverhampton, Stoke, Glasgow, or Holyhead? Have you ever lived in any of these places and experienced the difficulties that these regions experience? If you haven't, I wouldn't be so quick to start banging on about how tough you have it in your corner of the world.
The whole Scottish referendum was based around independence from Westminster, and it's focus on issues that are solely of importance to those that live in the capital. People are angry and resentful, and frankly p1ssed off with London and London-centric policies. For example, rapid house price inflation, the scourge of the SE is being touted as the reason why interest rates need to go up. However, the problem is mostly concentrated in London. Everyone in the UK will have to pay more for their mortgages, thanks to a problem that invariably is caused by London itself. The problem could be quite simply tackled by banks varying their interest rates based on locality, if you live in London, in order to control inflation, interest rates would be higher. It would also encourage people to buy outside of the capital and drive down living costs. Why has that idea not been touted? Because it would be incredibly unpopular in London.
If the UK Govt was also to spread it's assets and resources around the UK more evenly, then the pressure to live in London would be substantially less acute. However, everything happens in London, because it suits politicians to do it there.

There are serious problems throughout the country, and the whole of the UK generates more wealth and resources than is acknowledged. The Capital is supported by the regions in more ways than just with cash, with our labour and resources. Outside of London, we would still be able to put food on the table and live in warm, comfortable homes long after London disappeared under piles of it's own garbage.
London needs the rest of the UK a heck of a lot more than it acknowledges, and if the balance isn't redressed soon, then the resentment and anger will only get worse.

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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by PanzerGeneral » Sun Sep 21, 2014 7:59 pm

Speaking as a Scottish person who lives in England, at first I was a bit nonplussed about the whole affair until I started getting pissed off with the media coverage and decided to do a bit of digging, the one thing that really started getting at me was the notion of England subsidising Scotland, so lo and behold it actually turned out that tax receipts in Scotland were actually contributing about £1700 more per capita than England, it is true that the government spends approximately £1200 a year per capita more in Scotland-but that would still leave a surplus of £500 per capita per year from Scotland.
It also transpired that GDP per capita in Scotland was nearly 1% higher than in England.
Basically taxpayers in the remainder of the UK would have to have made up the shortfall in finance and productivity probably through increased taxation.
It also transpires that the "impartial" figures that were bandied about by the 3 main parties were from the IFS, who got their figures from the OBR-who were a group set up by none other than George Osbourne.
With regards to media coverage-there are 37 newspapers in Scotland and only 1 backed independence, the BBC and Sky news reports were told mainly from the no perspective and devoted a wholly disproportionate amount of airtime to the better together campaign.
There was also the myth about Scotland getting free prescriptions, healthcare and further education at the expense of the English-this was actually funded through the cancellation of several capital projects in Scotland, England had the exact same option available to them but deemed projects like London Cross Rail to be more important than free prescription charges.
Another huge fly in the ointment was the mooted currency union-wether you liked it or not, had a yes vote won through-I can guarantee that it would have happened, if not Scotland would have walked away from it's portion of the national debt which would have been approximately £125 billion, under law they would have been allowed to as the debt was registered to the UK. Obviously this would have caused a huge issue for Westminster finances as there responsibility to the national debt would have increased by 8.3% but they would have had several million less taxpayers to service it.
There was also the issue of Trident, after independence it would be removed from Scotland within 5 years, there was no way a suitable storage facility for the warheads could be completed before 2028-leaving the remainder of the UK with no nuclear deterrent.
The remainder of the UK would also have to renegotiate it's position on the UN security council.
There would also be the tiny little point about energy, Scotland produces a surplus of oil, gas and electricity and is entirely self sufficient in all, the excess electricity produced goes into the national grid and is used by the rest of the UK.
I hope people can start to see why the thee main parties were so interested in preserving the union, mainly loss of finance, power and influence for the top percentile of the UK-and the only thing those in power are truly afraid of-is the thought that they will lose their power, money and influence.
The whole thing was pretty much a self preservation exercise for the establishment.

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Matt_B
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by Matt_B » Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:36 am

r0jaws wrote:Have you ever been to Boston, Wolverhampton, Stoke, Glasgow, or Holyhead? Have you ever lived in any of these places and experienced the difficulties that these regions experience? If you haven't, I wouldn't be so quick to start banging on about how tough you have it in your corner of the world....and there's the problem, it simply doesn't wash, to a Londoner.
Yes. Believe it or not, but I've lived more of my life outside London than in it. I grew up in Manchester, and I've also worked in Leicester, Cambridge, Reading, Durham and Leeds. And I've been to all the places you mentioned, albeit only to Holyhead for the purposes of catching the ferry.

In turn, I'd like to ask you whether you've lived in London. Because all the evidence is that you haven't.

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markopoloman
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by markopoloman » Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:50 am

Life is hard wherever you live unless you have excess money. I live in Poole - 10 mins from Sandbanks but life is tough down here too. Looking at the government funding graphs shown here, the SE/SW are down on North West, East and Yorkshire. North East looks a little low though!
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by Sephiroth81 » Mon Sep 22, 2014 10:50 am

I do believe that the re-distribution of wealth needs to be fair. Yes there are lots of rich people living in London, but it also has some of the most poor and deprived areas in the country - more funding needs to go into London for policing and hospitals etc compared to other less densely populated area's.

Probably should be looked at more closely though and some justifications as to why there are some area's getting more investment per head than others.

Life is what you make of it though. Lots of very unhappy rich people, and happy poor (relative to this country at least) people out there. Not all about money, although i agree everyone should have at least enough money to eat, drink clean water and have a roof over their head. But we're a very rich country - much better to be poor here than in many (probably most in fact) other places in the world.

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r0jaws
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by r0jaws » Mon Sep 22, 2014 1:10 pm

Matt_B wrote:
r0jaws wrote:Have you ever been to Boston, Wolverhampton, Stoke, Glasgow, or Holyhead? Have you ever lived in any of these places and experienced the difficulties that these regions experience? If you haven't, I wouldn't be so quick to start banging on about how tough you have it in your corner of the world....and there's the problem, it simply doesn't wash, to a Londoner.
Yes. Believe it or not, but I've lived more of my life outside London than in it. I grew up in Manchester, and I've also worked in Leicester, Cambridge, Reading, Durham and Leeds. And I've been to all the places you mentioned, albeit only to Holyhead for the purposes of catching the ferry.

In turn, I'd like to ask you whether you've lived in London. Because all the evidence is that you haven't.
I actually lived in Brentford.
All my family outside of Belfast also live in Crawley. Not London, admittedly, but an overspill of the South of the Capital.
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