Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

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Independant Scotland?

Poll ended at Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:22 am

YES!
14
23%
NO!
37
62%
No Opinion
9
15%
 
Total votes: 60

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knightintosh
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by knightintosh » Fri Sep 12, 2014 5:19 am

The Big, Big Debate programme on the BBC News channel last night was interesting - 7000 16 and 17 year old school pupils in the audience and four politicians on the stage, two from each side. The school kids showed a lot more maturity than the politicians I have to say. Also, on several occasions the politicians (again, on both sides) tried to quote figures or experts and the school kids boo'ed, which was then immediately followed by the actual facts from the chairperson, the presenter. It shows both sides are lying to get their way, and the school children knew it! So to me it showed they HAVE done their research and yet the voting is still too close to call.

One of these facts was that Scotland actually gets more money back from the taxes it pays to the UK than it pays in. So this "battered, poor wife" approach is laughable. But if Scotland does stay and all these extra subsidies come into action I can bet you the people here in Northern Ireland and those over in Wales won't be happy!

As for Salmond, can't stand the man. Any news outlet, be it TV, radio, internet or printed press, is called "biased" by him whenever it reports on something he doesn't like. It's the last desperate recourse of someone who doesn't want the truth to get out. He's perfectly fine when those facts show something that would make it better for Scotland to go independent, yet he shouts "bias" as soon as the facts show the opposite. To me, it shows that Salmond WANTS biased media - biased in his favour, and any impartiality is shouted down. Kind of like what The Daily Mail does.
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knightintosh
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by knightintosh » Fri Sep 12, 2014 5:39 am

Just found this interesting link on National Geographic and the bit under the 'GDP' banner kind of blows that "poor relative of the rest of the UK" theory out of the water:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... f4604978=1
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TheDude18
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by TheDude18 » Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:01 am

I'm just curious but is there anyone on here living in England that would welcome Scottish independence? (Or even Welsh independence come to think of it) Or are you happy with the current lay of the land?
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stvd
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by stvd » Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:06 am

r0jaws wrote:Just saying, it'll be alright, and demanding that people shouldn't be worried is arrogant.
Who said it'll be alright? Who can tell?
There's a 50% chance we could be worse off but it won't be by much.

Why just stick with what you've got because it's the easy option?
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by psj3809 » Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:38 am

TheDude18 wrote:I'm just curious but is there anyone on here living in England that would welcome Scottish independence? (Or even Welsh independence come to think of it) Or are you happy with the current lay of the land?
I'll be honest, i havent really looked/read/listened to tons of it much. If Scotland want to be independant then fair play to them, i hope people who decide do do their homework though and its not just a case of 'we hate the english' mentality that 'some' might have.

As for will it be good or bad. Its funny how so many people here seem to know more than the experts by the sounds of it ! Theres as lot of spin on both sides, after hearing crap about the Millenium bug and how every computer would shut down kinda thing, or Iraq and how Saddam could kill us all i dont believe much of what i'm hearing on either side. As for me living in England i dont 'think' it'll affect me that much personally.

But i do hope that people voting in Scotland do do a little bit of research before voting yes or no as its obviously very important. Then again i know so many people who vote at general elections solely on who their parents voted for or the usual anti-Tory rubbish without checking any facts etc. Going to be fascinating to see what happens next week

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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by rossi46 » Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:07 am

The whole thing is about Scotland being able to make her own choices and being an independent voice in Europe.

No one I know is going to vote yes simply because they hate the English. To suggest that is condescending and very patronising. Scots have a chance to witness the birth of a new nation, capable of making its own way and deciding for itself about its own issues and matters.
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by psj3809 » Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:16 am

I did say 'some'

Its like people who bleat on about the tories and getting them out, the second you ask them why, what policies do you think are better with Labour they dont say a word. The reason i said that is because at most elections 'some' people dont seem to know what each party can bring to the country, they just vote on who they voted for last time.

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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by Antiriad2097 » Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:29 am

When those issues are economic decline and poverty with no support, I'll pass, thanks.

There is so much support from the south that it would be suicidal to leave that behind.

Your utopia comes at far too great a cost just to swap one set of politicians for another.
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by the_hawk » Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:54 am

gunbladelad wrote:Please - do yourselves a favour - completely ignore the biased media reports and go and do a little research on the matter. A couple of websearches ought to be enough.
gunbladelad wrote:All I'm saying is for people to go off and do their own research
Does "Doing the Research" mean wading through a load of hypothetical and/or skewed data from biased sources, dismissing anything that doesn't support your view and presenting what's left as fact? That's basically what people on both sides seem to be doing & I'm a bit bored of that.

I don't think it matters too much now anyway, the genie is out of the bottle. If Scotland votes "No" there'll still be enough of a mandate from the millions of "Yes" voters that Westminster will probably be compelled to devolve further power to Holyrood anyway.
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by Antiriad2097 » Fri Sep 12, 2014 1:03 pm

Has having Holyrood actually done us any good? Not that I've noticed. The cost of living continued to rise, while my pay continued to proportionally get less. My wife is still in that situation. I'm not seeing any benefit, and if that's the case, what's the point?

[edit]
Right, a little Googling finds this neat summary:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/8111464.stm

In 10 years, they managed to sort out free care for the elderly. Something that could have been achieved anyway, especially in that timescale.

Other than that, nothing significant except masses of scandal.
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Nemesis
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by Nemesis » Fri Sep 12, 2014 2:44 pm

rossi46 wrote:The whole thing is about Scotland being able to make her own choices and being an independent voice in Europe.

No one I know is going to vote yes simply because they hate the English. To suggest that is condescending and very patronising. Scots have a chance to witness the birth of a new nation, capable of making its own way and deciding for itself about its own issues and matters.
You might think that it's condescending and patronising but that's the impression many of us are getting south of the border. With comments like "go back to London and your nest of pedophiles" says it all really.

The EU aspect is an interesting point. Scotland will leave one Union and rejoin another. So that talk of Scottish people making decisions for themselves within an independent Scotland will be made partially null and void after you rejoin the EU as many decisions will be made for you on mainland continental Europe. So is that a good thing ,considering many want to re-negotiate terms with the EU as part of the UK?
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by Nemesis » Fri Sep 12, 2014 2:52 pm

knightintosh wrote:
One of these facts was that Scotland actually gets more money back from the taxes it pays to the UK than it pays in. So this "battered, poor wife" approach is laughable. But if Scotland does stay and all these extra subsidies come into action I can bet you the people here in Northern Ireland and those over in Wales won't be happy!
.
You can add the people in England as well! There are voices of discontent from some English MP's about what we're getting out of this with the three horsemen going to Scotland with their begging bowls and making further promises for a no vote. Whilst a major part of me hopes the Union holds together, the price in doing so grows greater for the remainder of the UK. Is that really fair on us? As an earlier post suggested, the genie is out of the bottle now. There'll come a point where there'll be no further powers to devolve and at the juncture Scotland might as well be independent and the remainder of UK taxes can go elsewhere.
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Nemesis
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by Nemesis » Fri Sep 12, 2014 2:56 pm

Antiriad2097 wrote:Has having Holyrood actually done us any good? Not that I've noticed. The cost of living continued to rise, while my pay continued to proportionally get less. My wife is still in that situation. I'm not seeing any benefit, and if that's the case, what's the point?

[edit]
Right, a little Googling finds this neat summary:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/8111464.stm

In 10 years, they managed to sort out free care for the elderly. Something that could have been achieved anyway, especially in that timescale.

Other than that, nothing significant except masses of scandal.
Especially, the scaremongering regarding the NHS in Scotland which I believe is completely devolved and wouldn't be privatised under the Union. Not to mention Salmond saying something like this vote was as significant as the end of apartied. Seriously? Did he go to prison for his beliefs like Nelson Mandela did? Are the Scottish people oppressed as the black people were in South Africa. Salmond seems to be making more outrageous statements the closer we get to polling day.
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r0jaws
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by r0jaws » Fri Sep 12, 2014 3:13 pm

stvd wrote:
r0jaws wrote:Just saying, it'll be alright, and demanding that people shouldn't be worried is arrogant.
Who said it'll be alright? Who can tell?
There's a 50% chance we could be worse off but it won't be by much.

Why just stick with what you've got because it's the easy option?
Salmond and the SNP for a start seem to believe that everything will be hunky dory.
Voting No isn't the easy option, but when confronted with a vague plan, wishful thinking and hyberbole it is definitely the more sensible choice.

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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by Antiriad2097 » Fri Sep 12, 2014 3:19 pm

I'm thinking it's more like an 80% chance we'll be worse off. By a huge amount.

Either quality of living gets worse because we're being taxed up the jacksie to pay for everything we'd lose, or quality of living gets worse because there's no money to pay for any of the services we expect.

Its lose/lose.

Even at 50/50 I don't like those odds. I don't want to toss a coin on my future.
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