Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

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Independant Scotland?

Poll ended at Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:22 am

YES!
14
23%
NO!
37
62%
No Opinion
9
15%
 
Total votes: 60

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Matt_B
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by Matt_B » Tue Sep 09, 2014 5:52 pm

rossi46 wrote:
Matt_B wrote:The big problem here is that most Scottish Nationalists don't really want total independence, but rather devo-max.
I agree with much of what you said, but I'd like to see your source of info for this. 100% of the nats I know are fighting passionately for the Independent Scotland that we've dreamed of for years.
They want to keep the pound, the BBC, stay in the NHS, retain membership of the EU and NATO, share embassies, etc. Basically, keep all the parts of the UK that they like. You can put whatever spin on that that you want, but that's basically what devo-max is.

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rossi46
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by rossi46 » Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:13 pm

Any country can use the pound.
BBC Scotland is a separate entity
Ditto NHS Scotland.
The EU and NATO can't be considered 'parts of the UK they like'

I'm fully aware what Devo-max is, but I asked you to show your source for claiming that the majority of Nationalists don't want independence.
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Matt_B
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by Matt_B » Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:40 pm

rossi46 wrote:Any country can use the pound.
BBC Scotland is a separate entity
Ditto NHS Scotland.
The EU and NATO can't be considered 'parts of the UK they like'

I'm fully aware what Devo-max is, but I asked you to show your source for claiming that the majority of Nationalists don't want independence.
Most economists would disagree with you on that first point.

BBC Scotland and NHS Scotland share many resources and facilities with the rest of the UK. The SNP want to keep it that way.

The EU and NATO certainly aren't parts of the UK, but Scotland wants to inherit membership of them from the UK.

While the SNP wants these things, I don't think they can say they want full independence. Then again, they don't have to; like I said, it's looking like win-win for them.

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r0jaws
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by r0jaws » Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:54 pm

gunbladelad wrote:
r0jaws wrote:One thing that puzzles me. The SNP is claiming 10% of all UK assets in the event of independence, military, banking, foreign office etc. However, they are also claiming 90% of the Oil based on Geography. Well the Bank of England is Geographically in London, so if they want a currency Union and an equal split on all assets, that should apply to the oil too, which is currently a UK, not Scottish asset. Which would mean that they would be entitled to 10% of that particular asset.
The Bank of England is headquartered in London - however, 90% of the North Sea oil fields are in Scottish waters. Are you suggesting that England illegally annexes over 80% of the eastern Scottish coastline?

To be honest there's far too much focus on what the oil will or won't accomplish - there's countless small countries out there that are massively successful - all without oil.
Are you suggesting that Scotland illegally annexes part of London to get it's share of the BoE? :wink:

Well, Oil is the cornerstone of the SNP's plans for independence. At the moment, the oilfields are no more a solely Scottish asset than the BoE is solely an English asset. They are currently both UK assets that would need to be negotiated come any change in status.
The North Sea would have to be divided up, and TBH, I don't see any Nation willingly giving something so valuable up without some sort of serious, hard-ball negotiation.
As a Brit, I would expect my Govt to be negotiating very hard for absolutely the best possible deal from a new competitor nation. Just as if we were negotiating with the French or Germans, and I would not expect them to capitulate when it comes to our interests either.

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rossi46
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by rossi46 » Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:06 pm

No matter what happens on or after the 18th, things will not be the same again.

Personally, I'd like to live in a country where we get to guide and influence the things that are important and relevant to us. Not to have decisions made for us by a government we didn't vote for or who couldn't even point to our location on a map.

A vote for independence is not a vote for Mr Salmond or even the SNP. It's a vote for the right of the Scots to run their own affairs as we see fit. Bin Trident and open the doors to immigration.

Besides, UKIP will fcuk us all up and out of the EU whether we stay together or not.
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r0jaws
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by r0jaws » Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:16 pm

rossi46 wrote:No matter what happens on or after the 18th, things will not be the same again.

Personally, I'd like to live in a country where we get to guide and influence the things that are important and relevant to us. Not to have decisions made for us by a government we didn't vote for or who couldn't even point to our location on a map.

A vote for independence is not a vote for Mr Salmond or even the SNP. It's a vote for the right of the Scots to run their own affairs as we see fit. Bin Trident and open the doors to immigration.

Besides, UKIP will fcuk us all up and out of the EU whether we stay together or not.
TBH, the rest of the UK outside of the South East feels much the same way. I've lived all over, from the very North of Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, the Midlands, and the East, and every area has issues that are felt to be ignored by Westminster.
For example, one thing that currently aggravates the East Midlands is the total lack of investment in transport infrastructure, relying on roads and rail networks last improved in the 50's. Yet billions have been earmarked to be be spent on HS2. A vanity project that only got the thumbs up because it involves London.
The UK needs to radically shake up how it governs itself. Personally I favour Federalisation.

As for UKIP. As long as my @rse points down I will never vote for that bunch of bug eyed nut jobs.

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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by gunbladelad » Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:13 pm

r0jaws wrote:Are you suggesting that Scotland illegally annexes part of London to get it's share of the BoE? :wink:
Nobody's saying that Scotland's going to want "it's share of the BoE - and comparing a shared currency (something that's done successfully all around the world - including Africa and the Caribbean) is nothing like plundering another countries natural resources.

Yes, the oil will be a boost to the Scottish economy, but everyone seems to forget that we have other industries that also produce a massive amount of wealth for Scotland - Tourism and the food & drink industries to name just two of them. Scotland would have the funding to run itselfeven when the oil eventually runs out. The only losers in Scottish Independence would be Westminster.
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by Nemesis » Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:50 am

This is what I pretty much feel about Scottish independence at the moment;

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/artic ... think.html

The sight of the three party leaders going begging to Scotland is pathetic. I'm fed up of Scots blaming their woes on things south of the border. Let them go it alone and then they can't blame anybody but themselves if there's things they don't like about their lives. This referendum has been nothing but divisive. Mr Salmond will win whatever the outcome.
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Matt_B
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by Matt_B » Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:14 am

gunbladelad wrote:
r0jaws wrote:Are you suggesting that Scotland illegally annexes part of London to get it's share of the BoE? :wink:
Nobody's saying that Scotland's going to want "it's share of the BoE - and comparing a shared currency (something that's done successfully all around the world - including Africa and the Caribbean) is nothing like plundering another countries natural resources.
I think you should take a look at those countries in Africa and the Caribbean before saying it's a good idea. The main reason they've got shared currencies is because individually they're too small and/or poor to maintain a stable one themselves and it's better to sacrifice their financial sovereignty than attempt to. There is, of course, one substantial currency union of developed countries and that's the Eurozone; joining that would seem a viable option for Scotland but it's not one that's been discussed much.

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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by knightintosh » Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:55 am

rossi46 wrote: BBC Scotland is a separate entity
It's not, it's just another local region like BBC Northern Ireland, BBC Wales or the countless English regions. It gets its funding from the TV licence from all over the UK just like all the others do. Take this from a former employee :) Not sure what will happen if independence happens.
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r0jaws
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by r0jaws » Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:36 am

gunbladelad wrote:
r0jaws wrote:Are you suggesting that Scotland illegally annexes part of London to get it's share of the BoE? :wink:
Nobody's saying that Scotland's going to want "it's share of the BoE - and comparing a shared currency (something that's done successfully all around the world - including Africa and the Caribbean) is nothing like plundering another countries natural resources....
It is actually exactly what Mr Salmond is saying. He now, as opposed to in the past, wants to keep Sterling, underwritten by the BoE. His argument is that as it is a UK asset, then Scotland is entitled to a share of it. In his head, that works. However, you would then have to apply the same logic to all the UK's assets.
Hypothetically, If I was a representative of the rUK, come the negotiations, I would be arguing pretty hard for a proportional share of the Oil based on that argument.

Also, there are a few aspects of this whole event that don't settle well with me. One particularly is the imposition on the rest of the UK of potential Nuclear disarmament. Because of the policy of a minority UK political party and the support of a proportionally tiny number of citizens, around 4%, we are faced with having to reduce the Nuclear deterrent to Russia expansionism, and rely on the French and Americans to provide that service. Until 2012 the SNP wanted out of NATO altogether because of it's stand on Nuclear weapons, but realised that they could not sell that to the majority of Scots. So they have now stated that they want to stay in, but the English have to take their nasty nukes back. That only got through by the skin of it's teeth in an internal vote, and many Nationalists think it is hypocritical to stay in an organisation that is opposed to their core beliefs.
Regardless of your beliefs about Nuclear weapons, the problem I have is that this tiny minority is dictating to the rUK and to NATO about it's defence policy. When you know what the Russians have been doing, and understand the threat that Putin actually poses, it's a particularly bad time to be messing about with our defence capabilities.

At the end of the day, we would hope that any negotiations are settled amicably. But there is a chance that they may not be, especially if the nation is threatened. Should the Russians decided to interfere with Energy supplies to the West, continue to probe our defences, and carry on with policy of destabilising neighbouring countries, the UK would be foolish to then allow the Scots to create a hole in our defences, and remove an essential resource. After all the referendum just express' the will of the people. It doesn't actually compel the UK Govt to do anything about it.

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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by joefish » Wed Sep 10, 2014 8:56 am

gunbladelad wrote:Yes, the oil will be a boost to the Scottish economy, but everyone seems to forget that we have other industries that also produce a massive amount of wealth for Scotland - Tourism and the food & drink industries to name just two of them. Scotland would have the funding to run itselfeven when the oil eventually runs out. The only losers in Scottish Independence would be Westminster.
It's easily forgotten because they make nowhere near the revenue that the oil industry does. And it's also easily forgotten that, apart from the density of its major cities, Scotland is a sparesly populated part of the UK with a disproportionately high dependence on state aid. Without the oil Scotland will be a very poor place. Simply the announcement of a single poll result that gave the YES vote a slight lead wiped out nearly 2 billion quid in investments in Scottish industry overnight as people dumped their shares.

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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by the_hawk » Wed Sep 10, 2014 9:55 am

SNP Logic: Give us the good stuff and all the socio-economic advantages of being in the UK but you can keep all the stuff we don't like, you know, like paying for it and stuff.

Politicians in Northern Ireland have been doing that for years.
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by Antiriad2097 » Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:03 am

And this is why I'm a No. Far too many serious and significant issues with either half baked or no plans at all. Completely failing to address major concerns and spouting fluffy ideals with no real substance. Its just another political flavour of the month thing that has been pushed through without any proper analysis and planning.

We're one small part of a tiny island with an overblown ego about our place in the world. We shouldn't be separating, quite the opposite, we should be hooking up with some of the other major powers.
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Re: Scotland independence - YES or NO - VOTE

Post by Matt_B » Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:24 am

the_hawk wrote:SNP Logic: Give us the good stuff and all the socio-economic advantages of being in the UK but you can keep all the stuff we don't like, you know, like paying for it and stuff.

Politicians in Northern Ireland have been doing that for years.
You can hardly blame them when it works so well.

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