Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

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The Angry Jock
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Re: shooter shoots 27 people in elmentary school in the u

Post by The Angry Jock » Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:13 pm

koopa42 wrote:
shiftytigger wrote: Add to this that some behavioural issues could actually be terrible parenting - ADHD is oft diagnosed when actually spending time and affection on a child works wonders.
This is the truth. My missus has worked in a school, the same school for over 15 years, in the nursery/junior side of it. These days she knows through experience that if a kid coughs in the wrong direction? next day they've got ADHD and about a week later? they've learnt that it gets them out of the sh1t and then the rest is history, another kid living off ADHD. When she started you would get maybe 2 or 3 kids who needed help whether dyslexia/ADD/autism/slight difficulties etc but now? sometimes over 50% of a group have problems! Bullcrap

OK so I accept that diagnosis gubbins is a learning curve and you would probably expect an increase as new things became known over years but come on, it's gone waaaaaaay past that now with parents doing a crap job and wanting to blame everyone and the moon for troubled little sh1t kids that probably could be doing so much better if their parents weren't pr1cks.

I agree that where possible you should try and keep any kids that need help in the main system because exclusion is just not gonna help later on
That's what happens when you have a bloated public sector and too little work. <sarcasm>Vote Labour</sarcasm>
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Re: shooter shoots 27 people in elmentary school in the u

Post by killbot » Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:32 pm

The Angry Jock wrote:That's what happens when you have a bloated public sector and too little work. <sarcasm>Vote Labour</sarcasm>
This 'bloated public sector' is why I can't find a job as a nurse two years after qualifying, is it? And why local councils are having their budgets slashed to the bone, impacting on services for the disabled and homeless?
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Re: shooter shoots 27 people in elmentary school in the u

Post by The Angry Jock » Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:56 pm

killbot wrote:
The Angry Jock wrote:That's what happens when you have a bloated public sector and too little work. <sarcasm>Vote Labour</sarcasm>
This 'bloated public sector' is why I can't find a job as a nurse two years after qualifying, is it?
Yeah, because it's oversubscribed. Or does bloated mean something else these days?
killbot wrote:And why local councils are having their budgets slashed to the bone, impacting on services for the disabled and homeless?
Yeah, because it's bloated and unaffordable.

Where do you think the money comes from to pay for all these services?

What do you do at the moment?
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Re: shooter shoots 27 people in elmentary school in the u

Post by killbot » Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:06 pm

The Angry Jock wrote:
killbot wrote:
The Angry Jock wrote:That's what happens when you have a bloated public sector and too little work. <sarcasm>Vote Labour</sarcasm>
This 'bloated public sector' is why I can't find a job as a nurse two years after qualifying, is it?
Yeah, because it's oversubscribed. Or does bloated mean something else these days?
killbot wrote:And why local councils are having their budgets slashed to the bone, impacting on services for the disabled and homeless?
Yeah, because it's bloated and unaffordable.

Where do you think the money comes from to pay for all these services?

What do you do at the moment?
I'm a phlebotomist at York Hospital. Our service is massively under the cosh because we can't afford enough staff or resources to meet the demand. Do you work in the NHS? I do and I don't see many signs of bloating. We're using knackered old equipment because we don't have the money to replace it. That's being bloated, is it? I mean, I assume you also work in the NHS given that you obviously know a lot about it. What do you do?

Also, there's a distinction between 'bloated' and 'unaffordable'. If you have 49p in your pocket and a loaf of bread costs 50p, you're not eating tonight. The fact that the food was unaffordable doesn't mean your desire to have it was an example of you being a wasteful spendthrift.

Do you really think services to help housebound disabled people or to feed and clothe the homeless are signs of a wasteful, decadant public sector? If so, who should provide these services? Or should people just be left to fend for themselves?
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Re: shooter shoots 27 people in elmentary school in the u

Post by The Angry Jock » Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:38 pm

killbot wrote:I'm a phlebotomist at York Hospital. Our service is massively under the cosh because we can't afford enough staff or resources to meet the demand. Do you work in the NHS? I do and I don't see many signs of bloating. We're using knackered old equipment because we don't have the money to replace it. That's being bloated, is it? I mean, I assume you also work in the NHS given that you obviously know a lot about it. What do you do?
It doesn't matter what I do because I'm not complaining about getting a job in the industry I work in and blaming other people for it. All you need to know is that I am in full time employment and I am a net contributor of taxes.

EDIT: The work I do also means I bring money into this country from overseas clients, money that aids growth and gets us out of recession. Just this week I've been working on projects in the Middle East and Ireland with guys I work with doing stuff South America, Middle East (different projects), Russia, USA and Central Africa.

The public sector, until very recently, represented around 6,000,000 employees according to the ONS (of which around a third work for the NHS - the fifth largest employer IN THE WORLD). This represents about a sixth of the working population of the UK. Of these 30,000,000, less than 30% are net contributors to the treasury. Hence the reason why the country has been running a deficit since 1999 and will continue to run a deficit until "the books are balanced" by the so called austerity measures being put in place.

It's all well and good saying people needs services, but we cannot afford to provide everything to everyone, it's not sustainable. Just because I'm not unionised with a faux-socialist agenda doesn't make me wrong. I don't work in the public sector, I pay my taxes, I also vote - because I contribute to society I am afforded the right to express my opinion on how MY HARD EARNED MONEY is spent. You work in the NHS but you may only see your little area of that, when it comes to big picture stuff we see and have access to exactly the same materials...except you probably get union propaganda stuck up on the notice boards aswell ;) Those boys need to look after their 6-figure salaries you know.

The public sector in this country is far too big, you know why? Because Labour went on a spending spree for 13 years in a bid to buy votes and retain power, but as we all know that can't continue, it all falls apart. This means that what they built must fall also, it's simple maths.
killbot wrote:Also, there's a distinction between 'bloated' and 'unaffordable'. If you have 49p in your pocket and a loaf of bread costs 50p, you're not eating tonight. The fact that the food was unaffordable doesn't mean your need to eat it was an example of you being a wasteful spendthrift.
It's bloated AND unaffordable. As far as I can make out your analogy agrees with what I'm saying which is don't spend money something you can't afford and don't really need.
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Re: shooter shoots 27 people in elmentary school in the u

Post by killbot » Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:49 pm

The Angry Jock wrote:
killbot wrote:I'm a phlebotomist at York Hospital. Our service is massively under the cosh because we can't afford enough staff or resources to meet the demand. Do you work in the NHS? I do and I don't see many signs of bloating. We're using knackered old equipment because we don't have the money to replace it. That's being bloated, is it? I mean, I assume you also work in the NHS given that you obviously know a lot about it. What do you do?
It doesn't matter what I do because I'm not complaining about getting a job in the industry I work in and blaming other people for it. All you need to know is that I am in full time employment and I am a net contributor of taxes.

The public sector, until very recently, represented around 6,000,000 employees according to the ONS (of which around a third work for the NHS - the fifth largest employer IN THE WORLD). This represents about a sixth of the working population of the UK. Of these 30,000,000, less than 30% are net contributors to the treasury. Hence the reason why the country has been running a deficit since 1999 and will continue to run a deficit until "the books are balanced" by the so called austerity measures being put in place.

It's all well and good saying people needs services, but we cannot afford to provide everything to everyone, it's not sustainable. Just because I'm not unionised with a faux-socialist agenda doesn't make me wrong. I don't work in the public sector, I pay my taxes, I also vote - because I contribute to society I am afforded the right to express my opinion on how MY HARD EARNED MONEY is spent. You work in the NHS but you may only see your little area of that, when it comes to big picture stuff we see and have access to exactly the same materials...except you probably get union propaganda stuck up on the notice boards aswell ;) Those boys need to look after their 6-figure salaries you know.

The public sector in this country is far too big, you know why? Because Labour went on a spending spree for 13 years in a bid to buy votes and retain power, but as we all know that can't continue, it all falls apart. This means that what they built must fall also, it's simple maths.
killbot wrote:Also, there's a distinction between 'bloated' and 'unaffordable'. If you have 49p in your pocket and a loaf of bread costs 50p, you're not eating tonight. The fact that the food was unaffordable doesn't mean your need to eat it was an example of you being a wasteful spendthrift.
It's bloated AND unaffordable. As far as I can make out your analogy agrees with what I'm saying which is don't spend money something you can't afford and don't really need.
I don't know where you get your idea of what working in the public sector is like, but I think it's faulty and possibly rooted somewhere in the mid-1970s. We don't all have posters of Neil Kinnock on the wall and call strikes because the tea's gone cold! We get underpaid and overworked and have to make do with materials that aren't up to scratch because the public's need for our services is growing far faster than our ability to pay for them. And then we have to put up with private sector workers accusing us of being workshy and of being paid enormous salaries for doing very little work. Cameron's tactic in this round of austerity has been divide and rule - get the public sector and the private sector blaming each other for the mess the country is in and hey presto - nobody's blaming him!

What you still haven't answered is who should be providing care for elderly, disabled and homeless people if not the public sector. You do realise those services are essential for the people they help, right? As in, often life-or-death essential. You can't just say 'sorry, the money's all gone, you'll just have to work out your own problems' and slam the door in their faces. Or maybe you think it's fine to do that? I don't know.
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Re: shooter shoots 27 people in elmentary school in the u

Post by The Angry Jock » Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:58 pm

killbot wrote:Do you really think services to help housebound disabled people or to feed and clothe the homeless are signs of a wasteful, decadant public sector? If so, who should provide these services? Or should people just be left to fend for themselves?
Missed this bit.

So the public sector is broke?

How have we managed to fund 2 decade long wars?
Why are there 3 administrative centres for the defences?
What about West coast mainline debacle?
Or parliamentary expenses?
Or the blowing of school budgets on headmasters leaving parties?
Why is the HMRC so large?
Why the tax system so complicated that it encourages avoidance?
Why are public sector pension fund shortfall covered by the tax payer, when the taxpayer is left at the mercy of the markets?
Why is the NHS paying £1600/day for agency nurses?
Why are people who are inexperienced with contract management/negotiation put in charge or infrastructure projects?
Why are these people never held accountable for their ineptitude?

Do you volunteer in your spare time?
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Re: shooter shoots 27 people in elmentary school in the u

Post by killbot » Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:10 pm

The Angry Jock wrote:
killbot wrote:Do you really think services to help housebound disabled people or to feed and clothe the homeless are signs of a wasteful, decadant public sector? If so, who should provide these services? Or should people just be left to fend for themselves?
Missed this bit.

So the public sector is broke?

How have we managed to fund 2 decade long wars?
Why are there 3 administrative centres for the defences?
What about West coast mainline debacle?
Or parliamentary expenses?
Or the blowing of school budgets on headmasters leaving parties?
Why is the HMRC so large?
Why the tax system so complicated that it encourages avoidance?
Why are public sector pension fund shortfall covered by the tax payer, when the taxpayer is left at the mercy of the markets?
Why is the NHS paying £1600/day for agency nurses?
Why are people who are inexperienced with contract management/negotiation put in charge or infrastructure projects?
Why are these people never held accountable for their ineptitude?

Do you volunteer in your spare time?
Most of the problems you name are issues with the government, not public sector organisations - they got us into two wars, they fiddled money on their expenses, they cocked up the rail deal, they refuse to tighten tax laws.

This one is interesting though -
Why are public sector pension fund shortfall covered by the tax payer, when the taxpayer is left at the mercy of the markets?
To take myself as an example, I'm a guy with two degrees working for £7ph. Now you can call me a mug but I genuinely want to work in the NHS because I want to feel I'm contributing something worthwhile. However, working in the public sector means I'm earning a lot less than I potentially could in the private sector and I get paid no bonuses or get any big pay raises when times are good but I still have to tighten my belt when times are not so good, which doesn't seem fair. The upside is, I get a very good pension deal. Except people in the private sector, many of whom made out like absolute bandits during the boom years while I was plodding along earning my £7ph, have suddenly looked at my nice little pension and decided it's not fair that I get that and they don't.

Which is fine - if you want to end disparity between public and private pensions I'm all for it. But that cuts both ways, so it also means that I now get paid in line with what a similarly qualified person in the private sector would get (a nice raise for me then!) and other private sector perks like bonuses.
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Re: shooter shoots 27 people in elmentary school in the u

Post by The Angry Jock » Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:17 pm

killbot wrote:I don't know where you get your idea of what working in the public sector is like, but I think it's faulty and possibly rooted somewhere in the mid-1970s. We don't all have posters of Neil Kinnock on the wall and call strikes because the tea's gone cold! We get underpaid and overworked and have to make do with materials that aren't up to scratch because the public's need for our services is growing far faster than our ability to pay for them. And then we have to put up with private sector workers accusing us of being workshy and of being paid enormous salaries for doing very little work.
You make me laugh, you say I have no idea about the public sector then you generalise about 80% of the working population...and you wonder why support for your cause is falling.

As for pay. Public sector salaries are above national average and then you have you're sweet pension deal that the vast majority of workers can only dream of...unless they contribute a quarter of their salary for 40 years. You've not had a pay raise for 2 years, boo hoo, I sit in an office (now half) full of folk who haven't had anything since 2007! And we've been told nothing until at least June and even then it's not promised.

Underpaid, laughable. I should be on 30% more than I am now but the market is chaotic so I stay for safety, I don't complain on here, I get on with it. My very small team (of 7) work very hard, we take anything that's going, we travel where we need to travel and in doing so we've gained a reputation for being the best at what we do...just because you're a nurse doesn't make you special, you do a job just like me and we do what we need to do to get by. The difference is you have 2 million collegues and greedy dillusional union officials calling strikes to take more money from me...there's only so much I can give!

killbot wrote:Cameron's tactic in this round of austerity has been divide and rule - get the public sector and the private sector blaming each other for the mess the country is in and hey presto - nobody's blaming him!
Got any example of that because all I see on MSE forums is the same Citizen Smiths saying the same old sh*t and not backing it up. I'm really interested how the global financial meltdown and subsequent lack of preparation was Cameron's fault, considering he came to power 2 years after the fact.

It's not Cameron who's the problem, it's massive well-compensated organisations protesting for more money whilst ordinary Joe tax payer looks on wondering who's going to fight his corner? Certainly not Bob Crow or Serwatka. They've made their own beds with that one.
killbot wrote:What you still haven't answered is who should be providing care for elderly, disabled and homeless people if not the public sector. You do realise those services are essential for the people they help, right? As in, often life-or-death essential. You can't just say 'sorry, the money's all gone, you'll just have to work out your own problems' and slam the door in their faces. Or maybe you think it's fine to do that? I don't know.
I know it needs to be paid for but you haven't answered the most important question - WHERE IS THE MONEY GOING TO COME FROM? It's all lovely getting £10M here from Starbuck and £20M there from Amazon but it's small change when we need £100's of billions.
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

Post by sscott » Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:21 pm

My wife worked voluntary as a physio for nothing in Egypt last week, much better than half the fat private sector cuntzzz who reckon work is travelling around in Audis on the phone and when not in the car walking (well sitting) and talking censored on the phone. Maybe we should be like underedevloped or even developing countries where 90% of people don't even get end of life care pain relief for cancer? Hey, maybe I'm stereotyping a whole group of people, would be bad that, yes? :wink:
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Re: shooter shoots 27 people in elmentary school in the u

Post by r0jaws » Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:28 pm

The Angry Jock wrote:
r0jaws wrote:One person, armed with a gun can exert their will much more effectively than one person with a bat or knife. It is very easy, and quick, to kill with a firearm, at a distance.
Armed with a bat or knife requires you to get physically close, be skilled, and relatively strong in order to kill. Even a child would be considerably harder to kill with a hand weapon.
The availability of firearms, and their easy accessibility makes them the weapon of choice for twig armed losers like this. Without a firearm, his murderous impulse may have been restricted to stoving his mums head in with a baseball bat and then hanging himself.
I was browsing Wiki and noticed this on the main page and I immediately remembered your post:

Chenpeng Village Primary School stabbing

At the same time almost as the shooting! However, this goes someway to greying your argument. Granted none of those kids were killed (just slashed and/or disfigured) I don't think it's be much of a stretch to say mass murder with knives is possible.
I don't think it greys the argument at all, in-fact, it reinforces it. If Min Yongjun had an assault rifle, he would undoubtedly have killed those children rather than injure them. For him to have killed them, and in as many numbers, would have taken a far greater amount of effort and time with just a knife, which he plainly didn't have the time and aptitude for.
Firearms are much more effective, otherwise the military would just stick with bayonets. Cheaper too. :wink:

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Re: shooter shoots 27 people in elmentary school in the u

Post by The Angry Jock » Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:28 pm

killbot wrote:Most of the problems you name are issues with the government, not public sector organisations - they got us into two wars, they fiddled money on their expenses, they cocked up the rail deal, they refuse to tighten tax laws.
Government are public servants, they're essentially your employer.

This one is interesting though -
Why are public sector pension fund shortfall covered by the tax payer, when the taxpayer is left at the mercy of the markets?
killbot wrote:To take myself as an example, I'm a guy with two degrees working for £7ph. Now you can call me a mug but I genuinely want to work in the NHS because I want to feel I'm contributing something worthwhile. However, working in the public sector means I'm earning a lot less than I potentially could in the private sector and I get paid no bonuses or get any big pay raises when times are good but I still have to tighten my belt when times are not so good, which doesn't seem fair. The upside is, I get a very good pension deal. Except people in the private sector, many of whom made out like absolute bandits during the boom years while I was plodding along earning my £7ph, have suddenly looked at my nice little pension and decided it's not fair that I get that and they don't.

Which is fine - if you want to end disparity between public and private pensions I'm all for it. But that cuts both ways, so it also means that I now get paid in line with what a similarly qualified person in the private sector would get (a nice raise for me then!) and other private sector perks like bonuses.
I also have 2 degrees and "on paper" should be on triple my salary but I choose to do the job I do. I've only ever had 1 bonus of £500 and that was in 2007. When I was 25 my annual salary was less than £5000 (and I got zero tax credit). My current salary (at 33 years old) is less than national average. I know very few people who get bonuses, it's really you who seems to have wild ideas planted in their mind about us rabid capitalist pigdogs.

Many in the private sector made out like absolute bandits???? What does that even mean? Got a % on that?
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Re: shooter shoots 27 people in elmentary school in the u

Post by killbot » Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:32 pm

The Angry Jock wrote:
killbot wrote:I don't know where you get your idea of what working in the public sector is like, but I think it's faulty and possibly rooted somewhere in the mid-1970s. We don't all have posters of Neil Kinnock on the wall and call strikes because the tea's gone cold! We get underpaid and overworked and have to make do with materials that aren't up to scratch because the public's need for our services is growing far faster than our ability to pay for them. And then we have to put up with private sector workers accusing us of being workshy and of being paid enormous salaries for doing very little work.
You make me laugh, you say I have no idea about the public sector then you generalise about 80% of the working population...and you wonder why support for your cause is falling.

As for pay. Public sector salaries are above national average and then you have you're sweet pension deal that the vast majority of workers can only dream of...unless they contribute a quarter of their salary for 40 years. You've not had a pay raise for 2 years, boo hoo, I sit in an office (now half) full of folk who haven't had anything since 2007! And we've been told nothing until at least June and even then it's not promised.

Underpaid, laughable. I should be on 30% more than I am now but the market is chaotic so I stay for safety, I don't complain on here, I get on with it. My very small team (of 7) work very hard, we take anything that's going, we travel where we need to travel and in doing so we've gained a reputation for being the best at what we do...just because you're a nurse doesn't make you special, you do a job just like me and we do what we need to do to get by. The difference is you have 2 million collegues and greedy dillusional union officials calling strikes to take more money from me...there's only so much I can give!

killbot wrote:Cameron's tactic in this round of austerity has been divide and rule - get the public sector and the private sector blaming each other for the mess the country is in and hey presto - nobody's blaming him!
Got any example of that because all I see on MSE forums is the same Citizen Smiths saying the same old sh*t and not backing it up. I'm really interested how the global financial meltdown and subsequent lack of preparation was Cameron's fault, considering he came to power 2 years after the fact.

It's not Cameron who's the problem, it's massive well-compensated organisations protesting for more money whilst ordinary Joe tax payer looks on wondering who's going to fight his corner? Certainly not Bob Crow or Serwatka. They've made their own beds with that one.
killbot wrote:What you still haven't answered is who should be providing care for elderly, disabled and homeless people if not the public sector. You do realise those services are essential for the people they help, right? As in, often life-or-death essential. You can't just say 'sorry, the money's all gone, you'll just have to work out your own problems' and slam the door in their faces. Or maybe you think it's fine to do that? I don't know.
I know it needs to be paid for but you haven't answered the most important question - WHERE IS THE MONEY GOING TO COME FROM? It's all lovely getting £10M here from Starbuck and £20M there from Amazon but it's small change when we need £100's of billions.
Okay, it's quite obvious that you're not going to budge on your view that anyone who works in the public sector is some wannabe Che Guevara who wants to steal your money and probably spend it on sandals, joss sticks and Guardian subscriptions. So I'd suggest that we call it a night there while things are still at a reasonably friendly tone.
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

Post by r0jaws » Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:33 pm

Are we talking about a mass murder, or are we just arguing over over-inflated, media driven stereotypes? :lol:

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Re: shooter shoots 27 people in elmentary school in the u

Post by The Angry Jock » Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:34 pm

r0jaws wrote:I don't think it greys the argument at all, in-fact, it reinforces it. If Min Yongjun had an assault rifle, he would undoubtedly have killed those children rather than injure them. For him to have killed them, and in as many numbers, would have taken a far greater amount of effort and time with just a knife, which he plainly didn't have the time and aptitude for.
The cases are slightly different as it appear that chinese dude was enraged so he probably wasn't concentrating on the job at hand, so to speak. Guns and knives are equally effective at killing people, the gun just does it faster, the fact he set about 2 dozen kids shows it's possible to do that much damage before being disarmed.
r0jaws wrote:Firearms are much more effective, otherwise the military would just stick with bayonets. Cheaper too. :wink:
Maybe if the opponents in the next war were armed with nothing more than a blunt crayon.
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