The Banks Are Dead.!

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pratty
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Re: The Banks Are Dead.!

Post by pratty » Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:26 am

The Angry Jock wrote:Then do you not think people should pay what they can afford rather than just give them a free pass?

Writing debt off means that it'll only happen again as people will think they really don't have to be responsible for their actions.
That's a great point. As I said I was only speaking simplistically, not claiming to have an the answers for all the ins and outs of a solution.

But yes, having people pay off what they can of their debts might be fair way to apportion any necessary contribution to fund the set up of a new system.
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Re: The Banks Are Dead.!

Post by pratty » Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:52 am

sscott wrote:..and blame a lot of us too!* "It's the banks fault they loaned me all that money!" :?

* not everyone of course!

It's true we play our part, of course people have to take some responsibility for their own borrowing. But it would help if the banks weren't actively encouraging people into debt unecessarily.

Unfortunatenly though that's their business. And we've become so dependant and intergrated with banks that actually trying to live within our means actually threatens their prosperity, and subsequently our savings and investments tied up in them. No wonder Max Keiser calls them "finacial terrorists", you could say it is as though they're holding our money hostage. Of course you can withdraw your savings but if money goes cashless, as I'm sure the banks are hoping, then where else will we keep our money but banks?
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Re: The Banks Are Dead.!

Post by James A » Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:39 am

Im putting money on this computing error at Natwest turning out to be a computer virus.

I was brought by my parents not to borrow money. If i want something i will wait my time and save for it. Thats the problem with people is that there too impatient for things and that plays into the banks and politicans hands. There was an economics advisior on CNN the other week, his advice was we have to borrow our way out of this debt :shock: . Now that sounds the most stupid thing ever but it releates to kick starting the economy by borrowing even more. End of the day its all wrong and this is where the conspiracy theorists are partly right. This debt will never be paid off and thats why the small ammount of investment bankers and people who control the flow of money have the governments in there pockets
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Re: The Banks Are Dead.!

Post by markopoloman » Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:41 am

I get paid cash every Friday - in a nice little brown pay envelope. I put enough to pay the bills in the bank. They see nothing else from me...... well, except for a little buffer to buy things online :roll:

The rest of the time I pay cash. I've done the HUGE dept thing and really don't want to do that again! Banks can shove it. :lol: But Natwest screwing things up this one time is not the end of the world and its been all over the news saying they are sorting customers issues out.
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Re: The Banks Are Dead.!

Post by Megamixer » Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:27 pm

Saw a figure on the TV the other night that said £40 Billion was lost every year from this whole tax evasion thing that's in the news at the moment. So much money being lost thanks to the big companies being greedy b@stards and not paying their taxes in the same way that their own lower-rung workforce have to. Really can't stand these businesses and 'celebreties' who think that because they have a ridiculous amount of money, they have the right to avoid taxes. Gits.
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Re: The Banks Are Dead.!

Post by RetroRik » Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:45 pm

pratty wrote:
The Angry Jock wrote:Then do you not think people should pay what they can afford rather than just give them a free pass?

Writing debt off means that it'll only happen again as people will think they really don't have to be responsible for their actions.
That's a great point. As I said I was only speaking simplistically, not claiming to have an the answers for all the ins and outs of a solution.

But yes, having people pay off what they can of their debts might be fair way to apportion any necessary contribution to fund the set up of a new system.
Tell all that to Greece. They can't pay off what they can afford. They are being asked to pay off more than they can afford. Spain next. Then you. I am quite an expert at debt since i've been in it for so long. Minimum payments go up and up and you get to a point where you only ever pay the minimum payment. Half of what you pay is interest. ( money invented into the system. )

Look at it this way...

A bank has £100 in real money. It is allowed to lend out 10x that. So it lends £1000 to a loan company. All in an electronic universe. No real money.

That loan company can then lend you 10x that. You could borrow £10,000 from the loan company. Nearly all of it in the electric universe.

Then you pay this back with interest. Say 25% over the term so you pay back £12,500.

So we have real money of £100 blowing up to £12,500 of electronic money. Can't you see the problem here.?
Can't you see why we are being screwed over.?

You will find all economy is based on debt. What is debt.? Invented money pumped into the system.

Its just not right.

Oh and so im clear. I might be paying off my mortgage but im still stuck with a large credit card bill so not free yet.
Just have a chance to reduce the credit card bill over time.

One last thought for you..........

If we all added up our bank balances and went to withdraw it, they couldn't pay us. The banks do not have the real money to cover what we think we have in our accounts. FACT.!

RIK
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Re: The Banks Are Dead.!

Post by SJ_Sathanas » Sat Jun 23, 2012 2:19 pm

RetroRik wrote: How many direct debits will be kicked back.? How many charges will be incured.?
None and any penalties will be refunded because the bank admitted a mistake/glitch
RetroRik wrote: How many cars are not insured because the monthly payment didn't go through.?
None and any penalties will be refunded because the bank admitted a mistake/glitch.
RetroRik wrote: How many credit ratings will be effected.?
None and any penalties will be refunded because the bank admitted a mistake/glitch.

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Re: The Banks Are Dead.!

Post by The Angry Jock » Sat Jun 23, 2012 2:42 pm

Megamixer wrote:Saw a figure on the TV the other night that said £40 Billion was lost every year from this whole tax evasion thing that's in the news at the moment. So much money being lost thanks to the big companies being greedy b@stards and not paying their taxes in the same way that their own lower-rung workforce have to. Really can't stand these businesses and 'celebreties' who think that because they have a ridiculous amount of money, they have the right to avoid taxes. Gits.
This is a total non-argument.

It is every persons right to pay as little tax as possible, the Government in it's infinite wisdom have created a tax system so incredibly complex that they can't even administer it properly. Further to this the UK has uncompetitive tax rates that make it difficult for investment as their just isn't the reward for the effort.

If anyone on here went out and risked everything to start a business and that business became successful, you're going to do your hardest to keep hold of that money...that money you risked, that money you worked for, that money that generates taxes for the Government, that pays for jobs...that helps the economy grow!

We need to reduce tax rates and stop demonising success, incentive big industry to want to come to this country and invest in people and skills.
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Re: The Banks Are Dead.!

Post by The Angry Jock » Sat Jun 23, 2012 3:00 pm

RetroRik wrote:Tell all that to Greece. They can't pay off what they can afford. They are being asked to pay off more than they can afford. Spain next. Then you. I am quite an expert at debt since i've been in it for so long. Minimum payments go up and up and you get to a point where you only ever pay the minimum payment. Half of what you pay is interest. ( money invented into the system. )

Look at it this way...

A bank has £100 in real money. It is allowed to lend out 10x that. So it lends £1000 to a loan company. All in an electronic universe. No real money.

That loan company can then lend you 10x that. You could borrow £10,000 from the loan company. Nearly all of it in the electric universe.

Then you pay this back with interest. Say 25% over the term so you pay back £12,500.

So we have real money of £100 blowing up to £12,500 of electronic money. Can't you see the problem here.?
Can't you see why we are being screwed over.?

You will find all economy is based on debt. What is debt.? Invented money pumped into the system.

Its just not right.

Oh and so im clear. I might be paying off my mortgage but im still stuck with a large credit card bill so not free yet.
Just have a chance to reduce the credit card bill over time.

One last thought for you..........

If we all added up our bank balances and went to withdraw it, they couldn't pay us. The banks do not have the real money to cover what we think we have in our accounts. FACT.!

RIK
Should you not be blaming the regulators who allowed this to happen?
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Re: The Banks Are Dead.!

Post by The Angry Jock » Sat Jun 23, 2012 3:18 pm

Never thought I'd see the day Jim Davidson spoke sense:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18549380
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Re: The Banks Are Dead.!

Post by crusto » Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:34 pm

Such a complex issue, but overall its plain to me that unless you are loaded life is just one giant con. How can pompous Cameron critisise Jimmy Carr when he and countless other legalized crooks rape our system for all its worth, and have been doing so for years. They are the biggest free loaders around.
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Re: The Banks Are Dead.!

Post by pratty » Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:30 pm

RetroRik wrote:
pratty wrote:
The Angry Jock wrote:Then do you not think people should pay what they can afford rather than just give them a free pass?

Writing debt off means that it'll only happen again as people will think they really don't have to be responsible for their actions.
That's a great point. As I said I was only speaking simplistically, not claiming to have an the answers for all the ins and outs of a solution.

But yes, having people pay off what they can of their debts might be fair way to apportion any necessary contribution to fund the set up of a new system.
Tell all that to Greece. They can't pay off what they can afford. They are being asked to pay off more than they can afford.
Chill Rik. :) I should have been clear that I was only talking there about personal debt. And the idea relates to a hyperthetical situation (similar to the one you proposed where we all back to zero), where people who have amassed a lot of tangable assets through credit end up better off than those who haven't. That unfairness could be balanced through the tax system for example, as apposed to repaying anything to the banks, who would ideally be done away with under a new system.

I'm largely in agreement with you Rik, and I'm well aware of the sleight of hand banks use to create money out of thin air. That's something the majority of the public is yet to grasp. Understandably there seems to be a feeling of "well if we owe it, we should pay it", as it is honourable to pay one's debts. But when the money lent is created so craftily at virtually no expense or risk to the lender, then we're not playing on level playing field as we don't have the privilege of creating money the way a bank does when it makes a loan. Such debts are too unfair to honour.

In the second talk I posted earlier, Mc Carthy suggests that banks actually have no need to charge interest because lending is basically a licence to print money anyway. However he concludes that the charging of interest is necessary to disguise the fact that they don't need to.

It's accepted that a bank must charge interest otherwise they'd only break even at best. However in theory, if a bank (creating money into existance every time it makes a loan) wanted to really be competitive, it could charge zero interest, or even negative interest, and it would still make money. The problem is people would become suspicous as to how they could apparently make a loss on the loan and stay in business, and would start to question just where banks where getting all their loan money from.

If it becomes widely apparant that banks are just creating money out of thin air then the people demand that money control and creation returns to them (through the state) where it belongs. Why borrow at interest from a counterfeiter, if you can just as easily print it yourself?
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Re: The Banks Are Dead.!

Post by merman » Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:52 pm

The Angry Jock wrote:
merman wrote:But the Tories only seem to have one policy - blame Labour for the deficit.
An so they should. Why was the country run at a loss for the last 10 years of the Labour government? A period of time when this country went through a virtually unpercedented period of growth, do you not think that's the time the people in charge pay down the national debt?

We all understand that this is a worldwide crisis and that there'd have been a recession regardless, what I'm saying is that if Labour had been responsible with it's finances we'd be in a far better position than we are now.
merman wrote:The low economic growth will continue while Osborne persists with 20% VAT and trying to pay off the deficit before the next election. He's not thinking long term, just about securing another term for the Conservatives to cut public spending.
You don't "pay off" a deficit, you pay off a debt. The deficit is the shortfall in annual funding which gets added to the national debt, which is now well over a £1Trillion. I think people focus too much on the deficit, if we paid off the debt we'd saves 10's of billions a year on interest alone, but we're talking such a vast amount of money now it's our children and grandchildren who'll be working til 90 to pay it off...f*ck them ay :wink:

Cameron is thinking long term when it comes to the Public Sector, it needs reduced in size, it's needs it's pensions brought in line with the other 90% of the working population and most of all it need to be simplified. Labour created a total mess of red tape and non-jobs, all time consuming and expensive to deal with.

As for 20% VAT, that was Labour who implemented that wasn't it? The 15% rate was always temporary. The Tories want to reduce tax rates but it can't. Saying if you reduce VAT to 15% then people will buy more is a fallacy because people aren't spending due to fear of losing their job/ home not because goods are too expensive.
merman wrote:As for the banks, blame both sides for failing to regulate them properly. And blame the Tories for allowing building societies to turn into banks. And blame the American banks for all the high-risk loans. And whoever came up with the idea of being able to trade liabilities/debt which sent Nortern Rock under.
I agree, both side are to blame, everyone's to blame, we all took advantage of it.
merman wrote:But don't worry, I'm sure our leaders will soon jet off to another summit meeting put on at huge expense to say that the problem will be solved...
Just one point here... Over the first two years under New Labour, Gordon Brown kept spending under control and paid off Government debt which the Tories had run up, which was costing the Government thousands of pounds a day in interest payments. Then when the economy improved, the spending began.

The Tories are to blame for VAT full stop, they introduced it and put it up rather than the direct tax rates. Labour reduced it to 15% as a temporary measure and put it back to 17.5. That extra 2.5 per cent under the current Tories has to affecting so many people, and it is cutting into retail margins.
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Re: The Banks Are Dead.!

Post by The Angry Jock » Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:34 pm

merman wrote:Just one point here... Over the first two years under New Labour, Gordon Brown kept spending under control and paid off Government debt which the Tories had run up, which was costing the Government thousands of pounds a day in interest payments. Then when the economy improved, the spending began.
I'm sure the countries financies were running in surplus in 1997 (or at least had them in place, unless you're suggesting Labour created spontaneous growth), the Labour Government just continuted policy until 1999 when polls suggested falling support for Labour...then they went on a spending spree of epic proportions.

BTW, you say the economy improved, yet Labour start running a deficit...does that seem responsible to you?
merman wrote:The Tories are to blame for VAT full stop, they introduced it and put it up rather than the direct tax rates. Labour reduced it to 15% as a temporary measure and put it back to 17.5. That extra 2.5 per cent under the current Tories has to affecting so many people, and it is cutting into retail margins.
Are you suggesting there should be no tax on goods?

But like I said earlier, maybe if Labour had been more responsible VAT wouldn't be an issue...
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Re: The Banks Are Dead.!

Post by crusto » Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:03 pm

the angry jock wrote:Are you suggesting there should be no tax on goods?

But like I said earlier, maybe if Labour had been more responsible VAT wouldn't be an issue...
Im no expert, so could you explain why having no tax on goods can be a bad thing?

Edit: Or even a much lower tax, say 5% or something..
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