Formula 1 2011 Thread.....

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Re: Formula 1 2011 Thread.....

Post by nakamura » Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:34 pm

RMLF wrote:
Sky is or has killed football to a large extent, If you are a Prem fan it may be all fine and dandy your team getting untold millions to survive and mass exposure, drop down a level to the Champs and then go below and youll find that Football is dying on its arse. The money doesnt trickle down and infact Sky ransomed the entire football league to help keep it a closed shop by threatening to decrease payments to the FL if their recent massive parachute payment deal of 16 mill per season for 4 seasons wasnt accepted iirc. Meaning that the lower clubs would get even less of the pie.

Your comment is naive, even the Prem clubs are in poor health despite the money floating around and teams like Bolton with debts of 90 mill and even Brum who won the League Cup and still may go bust and the problems of Leeds and so on before them chasing the dragon, based on 'secured income of tv rights as that is all that allows them to rack up the debts. Without the Sky money that the Premier League has become dependent on to secure its loans football as we know it will die in this country.

Some people would welcome this as it means that new clubs would be formed and run along traditional lines. But as it stands many people place the blame of the decline of football squarely in Sky's hands.
Many people don't blame Sky for the root of problems in football. A lot of it is down to the greed of the clubs and things like the FA. Premier league clubs are in poor health due to poor ownership, crazy wages, overspending and the like. The FA have poor screening for takeover bids, look at the current situation at Birmingham for example. It also happened several times at Pompy and once at West Ham.
Football clubs should not spend what they cannot afford, Leeds did this over ten years ago when Risdale risked years ahead of gate receipts to fund a team for the CL but it fell apart and we know what happened. Leeds overachieved, wasted a lot of money then went bust, and they deserved it.

There should also have been wage and transfer fund resrictions put upon the sport when it started to boom in the 90s. It works in US football and would again stop clubs getting out of control.

Sky, don't get me wrong are a part of a problem, but a much bigger problem. They do not fairly disribute TV rights and money but then the FA or the huge super rich clubs also do nothing to help out the smaller clubs. Man City have spent over 400m in the last couple of years, that is what is wrong with football.

:)
RMLF wrote:
nakamura wrote: When are the best games on Pay per view? Football is never on pay per view.
Did you miss the entire Sky Prem Plus channel which was PPV only which ran for 6 years? PPV football has been and gone in this sense, and is likely to be coming around again. Many of the foriegn leagues are having to stave off breakaways from top clubs wanting to make their games PPV only scuppering any TV deals. If it comes around here, there will be trouble
Pay per view was axed thankfully because it was rubbish and too expensive, there is no PPV now but ESPN instead which is just as bad for the consumer. The main reason that leagues are facing a breakoff is down to the greed of the top clubs around the world and the relevant associates.
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Re: Formula 1 2011 Thread.....

Post by RMLF » Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:01 pm

nakamura wrote: Many people don't blame Sky for the root of problems in football. A lot of it is down to the greed of the clubs and things like the FA. Premier league clubs are in poor health due to poor ownership, crazy wages, overspending and the like. The FA have poor screening for takeover bids, look at the current situation at Birmingham for example. It also happened several times at Pompy and once at West Ham.
Football clubs should not spend what they cannot afford, Leeds did this over ten years ago when Risdale risked years ahead of gate receipts to fund a team for the CL but it fell apart and we know what happened. Leeds overachieved, wasted a lot of money then went bust, and they deserved it.

There should also have been wage and transfer fund resrictions put upon the sport when it started to boom in the 90s. It works in US football and would again stop clubs getting out of control.

How have the clubs got "greedy" Nakamura? Before the Sky Deal Football was on its benders, and in serious danger of being utterly decimated. in this country. Attendences were shocking generally because of violence, lack of interest and so on and there was a lot less money in the game. Mnny clubs were in danger of going to the wall Aldershot would have been the start of things to come without the original sky deal which was something like 52 million over 37million n( i cant remember the exact figures off the top of my head) other offer on the table and even then the 37 million was a massive deal to help keep things afloat

So who put the money in the game, to allow the millions and millions to be spent? The last Sky deal was nearly 1 billion quid iirc As already mentioned and you have agreed with to some extent with teams banking against income from TV rights to bankroll the clubs. And this nearly completely wiped out the football league when On Digital went tits up and in Scotland when Setanta bit the dust. Without the TV money, there would simply be no football, or at least in the way it is known full stop.

The clubs have been encouraged to spend to attract the best players, to keep the viewing figures high on a cynical level, without them the tv deals wouldnt be worth nearly as much and thus we would be back to the dark ages again relatively quickly. It has been seen on the continent most pertinently in Italy iirc correctly where censored TV deals saw much of the talent move away from Italy, and it hasnt really recovered to a large extent. heck even Juventus one of the largest teams in Europe during the 1990's and before have downsized there home ground, and the squads quality is a far cry from when the league had money as is in general the Italian League.

Football clubs shouldnt spend what they cant afford, though if they dont, they dont get any extra income from an increased TV deal next time because the audience is not around so its a self perpetuating prophecy and that is something that can be laid squarely at sky's door who have been paying way over the odds for footy rights for years, to keep exclusivity and attract new customers and so on. Youve already mentioned Brum, Leeds and Pompey, but then you have Bradford, Swindon, Sheff Utd, Sheffield Wednesday, Southampton, Man City ( before Thaksin and then the Sheikh) Heck even Chelski were completely broke before Roman took over and were only weeks away from adminstration before Bates sold up, and that was even with all the money Matthew Harding had pumped in before his untimely death in a helicopter crash

With regards to wage caps and so on. Jimmy Hill ( yes, that Jimmy Hill) would would be pissed at this as it was he who brokered the minimum wage abolition way back 1961. Wages had already become removed from what people on the street were earning, despite what all the revisionists would like to tell you and were earning on average of £5 pounds higher than that of the average man, a lot in them days. The reason for the abolition was because South American teams and various others around the world were beginning to poach players and without a wage cap like Brit football they could pay the players pretty much what ever they liked. Some of the best players in the UK were going off to play football abroad at that point and to stop the talent drain, there was little option available.

To do it now would be a restriction of trade, and though Platini wants to do it, he has been unable to do so which is why we have got the proposed Fair Play rules coming in, in term this should limit wages, however it didnt under the minimum wage, because teams gave jobs, pubs and whatever to circumvent rules. It isnt goint to be any different this time.

It wasnt the Bosman ruling that created this system it was already in effect and has been exacerbated by the sky deals as mentioned above. Tv scheduling has also seen the dearth of Saturday fixtures, a higher dependence on the TV for survival and a myriad of other things that have taken the game out of the reach of many. QPR are charging £60 for home supporters and more next season, they have previously been charging £40 or more in the Championship which is outrageous.

Yes its an over simplified account but I cant be bothered to write thousands of words on it, been there done that and got the t shirt with regards to the history of football. Essentially though blaming the FA and the clubs owners is the easy way out, and doesnt take a look at the bigger picture. Football has been messed up for sometime and without TV it would fold, even with the new rules in place. We may yet get that anyway as banks and the taxman are more willing to wind up clubs, Its not solving the issue its just prolonging the inevitable

With regards to F1. Exclusivity especially when the sport was supposed to be saving money and make itself more attainable in the days of the early 1990s ane before where you had a number of privateers turn up and hope to race, barring qualifying disasters. Is just going to push things further away and leave it utterly dependent on TV deals to survive. Again it is then in the hands of Sky and Fuji TV if they call it quits, then its game over for the sport and this is completely and utterly the wrong way around to do things.




RMLF wrote:
nakamura wrote: When are the best games on Pay per view? Football is never on pay per view.
Did you miss the entire Sky Prem Plus channel which was PPV only which ran for 6 years? PPV football has been and gone in this sense, and is likely to be coming around again. Many of the foriegn leagues are having to stave off breakaways from top clubs wanting to make their games PPV only scuppering any TV deals. If it comes around here, there will be trouble
Pay per view was axed thankfully because it was rubbish and too expensive, there is no PPV now but ESPN instead which is just as bad for the consumer. The main reason that leagues are facing a breakoff is down to the greed of the top clubs around the world and the relevant associates.[/quote]

Dude, PPV telly was ended iirc after an EU ruling meaning that SKY couldnt have the monopoly on the Prem Broadcasting rights.. not just the rubbish figures that wiki says iirc. Sky had to sell off some of their packages the lowest drawing channel/less profitable would be the easiest to offload. AS mentioned above the club by club deals are done out of necessity because clubs get more of their income through TV than they do their gates by and large especially in the Prem, and as such they have to speculate to accumalate and as mentioned this is a vicious circle that has come about because of SKY allowing an already flawed system to pick up and exist and expand on nothing, much like the money markets If one goes they all go

Whilst Bernie thinks he is doing the right thing, you may find that F1 a sport that was already struggling for finance anyway disappears completely or becomes completely unsustainable very quickly inspite of what has been done to make it more affordable.
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Re: Formula 1 2011 Thread.....

Post by markopoloman » Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:22 pm

nakamura wrote:
markopoloman wrote:Personally I couldn't give a toss about BBC funding. All I know is that I, like every other UK F1 fan pays a TV license - and I want F1 to stay in full. The BBC has so many other areas it could cut back on - world news in other countries - bin them. BBC4 and BBC3 full of utter junk - bin them. Over paid management - bin them too. 3.5billion quid is made from the license.

F1 should have stayed. End of.
What about when football went to Sky? The most watched sport in the world. Did it bother you then?
What about football? Look, if you happen to like Football (I don't) you can pay silly money to Sky and watch a shed load of it. It is on almost every day of the year, so it is probably worth £30 - £50 per month to a huge fan of it. But to someone like me that can't stand football - paying £30 - £50 per month to watch 10 races! That is a complete rip off. I'll be streaming via the net for the non BBC stuff next year - or will download torrent stuff. I refuse to pay that amount of money to Sky.
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Re: Formula 1 2011 Thread.....

Post by the_retro_bear » Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:36 am

Football you can go and watch anywhere

It's not like you can pop down the road to an F1 track every weekend and take in the action
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Re: Formula 1 2011 Thread.....

Post by nakamura » Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:42 am

markopoloman wrote:
nakamura wrote:
markopoloman wrote:Personally I couldn't give a toss about BBC funding. All I know is that I, like every other UK F1 fan pays a TV license - and I want F1 to stay in full. The BBC has so many other areas it could cut back on - world news in other countries - bin them. BBC4 and BBC3 full of utter junk - bin them. Over paid management - bin them too. 3.5billion quid is made from the license.

F1 should have stayed. End of.
What about when football went to Sky? The most watched sport in the world. Did it bother you then?
What about football? Look, if you happen to like Football (I don't) you can pay silly money to Sky and watch a shed load of it. It is on almost every day of the year, so it is probably worth £30 - £50 per month to a huge fan of it. But to someone like me that can't stand football - paying £30 - £50 per month to watch 10 races! That is a complete rip off. I'll be streaming via the net for the non BBC stuff next year - or will download torrent stuff. I refuse to pay that amount of money to Sky.
What about people that support a team that is not on Sky very often? There are plenty of fans that don't want to watch Man Utd or Chelsea every week so to them it is equally expensive. Just because you love a sport and hate another it doesn't mean it should be on normal tv for free. Plenty of other sports fans over the years lose out to Sky. When Sky started the majority of us lost all live football bar the euro stuff for many years. Even now we have lost one of our champions league matches a week. As a TV licence payer I want more football but I know I am not going to get it.

Personally I think F1, if it is going to Sky should be on a low cost PPV service myself, something like a tenner a race weekend.
Last edited by nakamura on Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Formula 1 2011 Thread.....

Post by DreamcastRIP » Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:36 am

Woot! Lap 5 - Vettel cracked under pressure AGAIN! :lol:

Hamilton & Button both driving magnificently so far (lap 20). :D
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Re: Formula 1 2011 Thread.....

Post by nakamura » Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:57 am

Well 10 laps of racing and now it is all about a mistake.
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Re: Formula 1 2011 Thread.....

Post by paranoid marvin » Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:59 am

Just hope Sky don't start showing adverts mid-race. They'll give it the usual 'Sky treatment' (for the first season at least) with every angle covered ; far moreso than the Beeb or ITV did. Of course you will have to pay for the priviledge, and it's annoying that something that was once free to everyone will cease to be so for the forseeable future (with the exception of a few crumbs thrown to terrestrial tv).
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Re: Formula 1 2011 Thread.....

Post by DreamcastRIP » Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:01 am

Here's hoping that race marshal's okay. He appeared to get hit by some of the debris from Heidfeld's exploding car and looked like he was limping afterwards. :(
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Re: Formula 1 2011 Thread.....

Post by DreamcastRIP » Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:50 am

Superb win from Button on his 200th GP start. :D

Hamilton should have won though.

Good effort from di Resta to finish 7th. :D
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Re: Formula 1 2011 Thread.....

Post by Liamh1982 » Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:38 am

In those conditions, ALWAYS put money on Button.
Vettel - jammy git, poor race and still finished 2nd.
And Hamilton only has himself to blame, he made the call for the 4th pit stop.

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Re: Formula 1 2011 Thread.....

Post by DreamcastRIP » Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:42 am

Liamh1982 wrote:... And Hamilton only has himself to blame, he made the call for the 4th pit stop.
I'm not wholly clear on what happened with that?

Whitmarsh, if I read it right, seemed to suggest in his post-race interview with the BBC crew that whichever of their drivers was leading at the end of that lap would be the one allowed to pit for new tyres first.

Was there more to it than that?
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Re: Formula 1 2011 Thread.....

Post by markopoloman » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:55 pm

A very good race - especially for Hungary. Not so sure Hamilton deserved the win - He made the mistake (spinning) whilst on the faster tyre. He made the mistake of spinning the car back around in front of other traffic. So he deserved the drive thru. McLaren couldn't hear what he was saying - so confusion set in with that and at the point when they threw the inters on, 50% of the field were also doing the same thing (including Webber) - so at the time it was a pretty obvious choice to make................. The fact that the rain stopped as he drove out of the pits was sods law!!!
Button on the the other hand drove a brilliant and calm race - the only drive in the front 6 not to make a silly mistake (unless you count the fight with Hamilton when he went wide).... He deserved the win. :D
Vettel :roll: Even when he has a bad race, he still manages to extend his lead in the championship. One thing of interest...... HE OVERTOOK ALONSO!!!! Yes, Vettel overtook another car - IN A RACE! :o :lol:
Webber - he just isn't there. This season he has become the second most clear No2 driver on the grid........
Massa though is clearly just in reserve mode. He is number 2 and WILL move out of the way so Alonso (who drove an awful race) can just breeze past. Even though Alonso drove off the track numerous times. Massa must really hate team orders.
Alonso - 3rd :shock: Did not deserve that.
DiResta did a good job bringing the car home in 7th - and avoiding Hamilton!

Great fights further down the field = awesome race.

Oh, and the fire for Gay Nick and his exploding Renault :shock: :shock: That marshal really did look like he was hurt.......

Bloody summer break now - BUT it i SPA next :D :D :D Best track .... ever..... fact.
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Re: Formula 1 2011 Thread.....

Post by DreamcastRIP » Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:58 pm

markopoloman wrote:Vettel :roll: Even when he has a bad race, he still manages to extend his lead in the championship. One thing of interest...... HE OVERTOOK ALONSO!!!! Yes, Vettel overtook another car - IN A RACE! :o :lol:
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Re: Formula 1 2011 Thread.....

Post by Katzkatz » Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:15 pm

Yeah, a pretty good race for the Boringring :lol:. Helped by the wet conditions at the start, plus the crumbly tyres! I feel sorry for Lewis. He drove pretty well today. Yes, he made mistakes(his little spin and nearly taking Di Resta out!), plus using the soft tyres instead of hard ones, then switching to intermediates. Strange that choice. He is normally one of those drivers who stays out on dry tyres for as long as possible in wet conditions. It was a tough pit call I admit. After the race he seemed to handle it much better. He even said he would apologise to Di Resta. No prima donna antics or : "Maybe it's because I is black!" comments. So he does seemed to have a new focus now.

Jenson had the best race here. He just seems to know what to do in these conditions. Good that he and Lewis raced. Teammates racing one another - it won't catch on! They did it cleanly and fairly. A good way to cap off his 200th Grand Prix.

Vettel. What can you say? I want that man to pick my lottery numbers. He must be the luckiest man alive. His idea of a bad race, is a 2nd. Yes, he overtook Alonso. He can tick off overtaking now on his list. :lol: :lol: Well hardly. I take the point though.

Alonso was okay in this race. Too many spins through. 3rd place not bad. Still he could have done better.

Webber and Massa. Oh dear! If ever there were two number 2 drivers, it is them. They were not in the same race as the others. Although I suppose Massa did so overtaking. Still he didn't put up much of a fight when Alonso took him.

Yeah - next stop Spa. I agree the best track ever. My favourite corner on there is 'Pouhon'. The cars can get the backends out on that! Super scary to see it happen. Quite a wait for it. Vettel shows no sign of his championship slipping away from him. Going to take a miracle to overturn that points haul. I suspect the Red Bull will probably have the edge for Spa.

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