pratty wrote: ↑
Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:27 am
Matt_B wrote: ↑
Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:20 am
Capitalist-produced iPhones? You do know that they're made in China, right?
The films might be a bit naff, but this discussion is comedy gold.
Yes I'm aware they are made in China. The word "produced" can refer to more than the physical creation of something, I was talking about the economic system that brought the phones into their conceptual existance, not the country where they are physically manufactured. Apparently my mistake for thinking that was obvious, but if you feel you've scored a point you're welcome to it.
Sorry, but you can't just handwave away manufacture as somehow not being part of the economic system. A major reason people criticize unrestrained capitalism is precisely because of its tendency to move jobs offshore to places where there's a lower cost-base, and when that place happens to be a Marxist state it's not exactly a great argument for the benefits of capitalism to the people whose jobs have been offshored. Apple have, in the past, been criticized for using slave labour and underage workers in their supply chains too. To their credit, they've responded and made efforts to reduce and eliminate, but that deregulated international trade has no safeguards to prevent it from happening isn't exactly a plus point for capitalism either.
In any case, the economic system that brought the iPhone into its conceptual existence was mostly state funding of public institutions. There's no totally capitalist country in the world with pretty much everywhere running a mixed economy. In large part that was DARPA, but I'm not going to champion the military-industrial complex. Apple obviously did make a lot of things themselves like their source code, industrial design and they own numerous trademarks and patents. Still, given the huge numbers of other smartphones on the market (including, dare I say it, some Chinese ones) it's not they came up with anything that crucial to their operation.
Anyway, that's just one of many reasons why it's a bad argument. For another, you can do a reductio ad absurdum
and tell a slave that they can't complain about slavery, because slave labour gave them the food they eat, to see that it's just a fallacious appeal to the status quo
. The world as it is gave us what we have, but that doesn't mean that we have to love every aspect of it.
On a final note, I'm surprised that this topic hasn't been modded yet. When that time inevitably comes, I'll claim in my defence that there's no ban on talking about conspiracy theories and economics. If other people want to make it political though, that's their lookout.