France vs Ireland Qualifier

When the other folders just won't do!

Moderators: mknott, NickThorpe, Darran@Retro Gamer, MMohammed, lcarlson

User avatar
binaryRooster
Posts: 693
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:28 pm
Location: Saturn

Re: France vs Ireland Qualifier

Post by binaryRooster » Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:31 pm

...or letting Liverpool into the champions league when they failed to qualify for it.

User avatar
SirClive
Posts: 20261
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 7:25 pm
Location: Planet Sinclair
Contact:

Re: France vs Ireland Qualifier

Post by SirClive » Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:39 pm

I know I am biased, but not having the reigning champions defend their title would devalue the tournament in my opinion.

I am glad the game won't be replayed, but I think FIFA need to look at how they discipline cheats.

Henry should be banned for a few matches for deliberately cheating, as should Ngog for his dive, as should Eduardo have been. That would help to stamp it out.
Image

Bub&Bob
Posts: 6833
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:24 pm

Re: France vs Ireland Qualifier

Post by Bub&Bob » Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:42 pm

lanky316 wrote:Last year Stevenage were knocked out of the play offs because a player got sent off for passing the ball and being caught late
and Boro Bear still has the hump about that!!
The dry fart for Barry MacDermot and all the cancer patients in the Glamorgan testicle ward

User avatar
RMLF
Posts: 3210
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 7:54 am
Location: Lost in the Ether

Re: France vs Ireland Qualifier

Post by RMLF » Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:59 pm

I posted this on another forum, but hope it will answer some things on here?

Righty, Iam slightly hung over, but will try and make this as coherent as possible.


Football has had a long history of the referee being singled out for being wrong or making the wrong actions, in the case in point ( from the match reports ive read, I cant find any hightlights or the match themselves sorry) It appears that the linesmen (asssistant referee) had and unblocked view of the incident and did not mention it it to the referee, whos view wasobstructed. Ergo it is a bit harsh to blame the referee for giving the goal when he had not seen any infringement, and his assistant did not see any infringement.

It appears, like I said in my original post, everyone wants someone to blame, despite their own shortcominsg ( more on this when I get to the Tevez saga later) In this case its Henry for cheating or The ref for being rubbish. Would technology or anything else make this better?

I dont think it would. Fifa have already iirc trialled a ref in each half, an official behind the goal or what ever, and they did not have any concernable difference. Referees were originally added to stop dissention in matches over local rules as the FA began to statndardise the game. they were not on the picth to begin with and were more like todays 4th official, operating from the side of the pitch in the middle. Their purpose was to sort out any disagreements in interpretations in rules and any quibbles that may arise, such as a goalkeeper handling in the opposition half!

With the human element seemingly exhausted, what about technology? Well you have replays, a tv ref to sort out controversial incidents like the one in the France Ireland match would be great in theory but may not be so good in practice. What do I mean? Football has been about exciting the masses, from its early days it has been about making it more exciting, So from changing a throwin from what was basically a line out, had to be thrown on to the pitch at right angles to multidriection in the 1870's to messing about with the offside rule in the 1930s re number of forwards to help sort out high scoring games and then again with the active in active play. There has been consideration to the inactive players ion recent time. Other options have included Kick ins instead oif throw ins, mooted in the mid 1990s trialled in the diadora league iirc, and Golden and Silver Goals to help make extra time more exciting to watch.


Using video refs will most likely affect the pacing of the game and slow it down a little. Its fine to use it in natural breaks in the game ( it will just add more time to stoppage tiem at the end, unless is speciifically legislated for), but a video ref doesnt always get it right either, multiple replays of an incident from multiple angles do not always produce the correct result in Rugby becuase of human interpretation, so whos to say that it will make it any different in football. Its nice to have a back up, but why the insistence in technology in the first place. Refs get a torrid time as it is. As has been mentioned re sunday league games not necessairily having refs, the reason for this iam told, is because their is too much aggro from the players of how the rules should be interpretted and how if it happens in the Prem/Internationals, it should happen on the parks etc. The refs have enough exams and red tape to sort through, with out the additonal haranging from players who think its okay to follow the prem cheats and ignore the laws of the game. It also results in increased cases of violence against referees. fun, huh!

I digress, there are other sorts of technology available, 'Hawkeye' for goals for instance. Wouldnt it be great to think that money is the sole reason why our game has changed. Seriously thats what its all about, with many teams being in debt, or in the case of the World Cup finals, a greater revenue/tv share if more desirable teams qualify (more on this later). Teams are doing everything they can to protect themselves and as aresult every goal is important. this is irrespective of the fans, its so the teams/federations could balance the sodding books. Making the game more predictable, may mean that people drift away from the game.

The element of doubt, contested decisions and banter has been a part of the game for years It is not until recently that the idea of replays have been mooted to solve every thing it has usually just been accepted and got on with.

Some examples:-

Willie Carr's Donkey Kick in 1970, resulted in the move being banned but only at the end of the season, no replay requried mentioned

Hasan Unsal getting sent off for Turkey after Rivaldo's simulation during the 2002 World cup (you know went down like he had been shot 'ball to the face') Rivaldo fined 11000 Swiss francs iirc. No mention of a replay

Leeds vs Bayern Munchen European Cup Final 1975, Peter Lorimer denied a 'perfectly' good goal, and Leeds had two 'Stonewall' penalties denied by the ref, they lost 2-0 in the end iirc no mention of a replay

Anderlecht Bribery in the Uefa Cup Semi final against Notts Forest in 1984, lost of corruption re the ref, no replay or request for a replay/

West Germany vs Austria, playing a very unsportsmanlike group game in the World Cup 1982 where the score line was effectively pre determined, it had to be 1-0. No replay, but Fifa made sure that from then on in that all final group games were played at the same time to prevent such matches

Battiston/Schumacher incident same World Cup, despite being clearly knocked the censored out in a decisive and blatant foul, the ref gave a free kick no one got sent off and Battiston lost a tooth!. No replay

Beachball Gate October 2009, disputed goal, via a beach ball Sunderland won, Lieverpool didnt challenge for a replay.

I mentioned some of the games that were or wanted to be replayed, on insinuated that would be replayed in my original post ( Spanish Cup games, Crystal Palace's goal that never was etc) There is also Sheffield United- Arsenal that was replayed because of a sportsmanship issue re a disuputed goal by Marc Overmars 10 years ago. Fifa threatened to get involved and say that the result should stand and though would ultimately have juristiction ( they supercede F.A) it was an FA edict, that allowed the game to be replayed.

Thje Idea of replaying games seems to be there fore a recnet innovation, its money related, its all about the money these days and lack of it. Fifa seeded the World cup draws, basically to attract the best able TV rights deal that was open to them. Inoder to ensure that the most they could do was seed a draw to make it the favour of the teams with more attractive players, better lilkely hood of negotiating expensive deals and making a profit on the whole shebang. There is also the pandering to Uefa. Politiocs plays a major part in FIfa ( as if our own bribery with ahand bags didn show that up , or meaningless freindlies in the Carribean for that matter) FIFA have to cosy up to Uefa as without the uefa nations the World cup would not turn a profit. It has been discussed in football academia as rumour/ half truth that should Uefa want to go it alone, with just an Expanded Euros's that it would effectively Kill FIFA as there would be no money in it it and they would lose all of their supposed power on a world. Most of the world games money is in Europe, most of the highest viewing figures are in Europe and most of the best players are in Europe or play for European nations ( percieved notion). The World Cup needs UEFA, but UEFA doesnt need it, and is why so much is done to make sure it is easier for the 'better' nations to qualifty. Its utter bollocks but thats why it is done. Also doesnt help with platinin threatening to rock the boat either so there has to be some top toe diplomacy to keep UEFA sweet.. Some of the Alan Tomlinson books provide a good insight on this.. he spent much time at FIFA and his book on the run up to and inclusion of WC 1998 is excellent.
The Artist Formerly Known as Ralph Milne's Left Foot :P

Wheres Gus Ceasar when you need him?... Pah!

Ralph's Trade/Sale Thread http://www.retrogamer.net/forum/viewtop ... =6&t=22769

User avatar
stvd
Posts: 5137
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 7:51 pm
Location: Scotland
Contact:

Re: France vs Ireland Qualifier

Post by stvd » Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:11 pm

SirClive wrote:I know I am biased, but not having the reigning champions defend their title would devalue the tournament in my opinion.

:? :? :? :? :?

Who? Italy?
Image

User avatar
binaryRooster
Posts: 693
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:28 pm
Location: Saturn

Re: France vs Ireland Qualifier

Post by binaryRooster » Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:16 pm

Image

User avatar
SirClive
Posts: 20261
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 7:25 pm
Location: Planet Sinclair
Contact:

Re: France vs Ireland Qualifier

Post by SirClive » Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:18 pm

stvd wrote:
SirClive wrote:I know I am biased, but not having the reigning champions defend their title would devalue the tournament in my opinion.

:? :? :? :? :?

Who? Italy?
Eh? I am talking about Liverpool in the '06 chamions league.
Image

User avatar
the_hawk
Posts: 5843
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:25 pm
Contact:

Re: France vs Ireland Qualifier

Post by the_hawk » Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:29 pm

Personally I think the Champions League was devalued anyway by having a terrible side like the Liverpool 2004/05 team winning it. :lol:

I don't remember too many Liverpool fans being annoyed when reigning champions weren't there to defend the 2001/02 UEFA cup. :wink:
You can follow me on Twitter https://twitter.com/DaveySloan
Sponsor Me http://www.justgiving.com/daveysloan2014

OR type 99 to continue

User avatar
binaryRooster
Posts: 693
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:28 pm
Location: Saturn

Re: France vs Ireland Qualifier

Post by binaryRooster » Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:44 pm

i thought it was censored taking of the highest order that Liverpool were allowed into that competition. Liverpool said that the champions should have the chance to defend their trophy - you did, you entered the qualification process and you failed.

User avatar
Waz
Posts: 16
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:17 am
Location: Manchester, UK
Contact:

Re: France vs Ireland Qualifier

Post by Waz » Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:29 pm

Now that the dust has settled a bit, I thought I'd offer my 2p worth.

First off, there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that Henry's handball was clear and deliberate. The linesman had a case of the Arsene Wenger Syndrome (ie: "I didn't see it") and the referee at least was in a good position to have also spotted something, yet didn't. It makes you wonder whether the referees in question were the right ones to officiate in such a high profile game as this one.

FIFA will of course refuse to play the game, citing "the referee's decision is final", which it is (unfortunately) but they could easily take other actions, for example a 3 game ban for Henry for unsporting conduct. After all, if the governing bodies can retroactively ban a player because of an action on the pitch unseen by a referee in the Premiership (for example Emmanuel Adebayor's shocking tackle against Robin van Persie against Arsenal, and this is coming from a Man City fan) - then why don't FIFA say "well if the ref had seen it, it'd have been a sending off for deliberate handball so we'll ban the player for 3 games." At least that way France would lose the player for their qualifying rounds, putting them at some disadvantage.

I do however think that it goes to show how much the ethos of "play to win at all costs, even if it's cheating" is prevalent in the game at the moment. Only on rare occasions does sporting gestures happen (Paolo di Canio at Goodison Park during Everton - West Ham springing to mind) and the bad far outweighs the good.

I for one am hoping France get knocked out first round...
Warren Pilkington (Waz)
Former contributor to Zzap! 64, Commodore Format and HVSC
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/zawtowers/
Twitter: @zawtowers

User avatar
SirClive
Posts: 20261
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 7:25 pm
Location: Planet Sinclair
Contact:

Re: France vs Ireland Qualifier

Post by SirClive » Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:41 pm

binaryRooster wrote:i thought it was censored taking of the highest order that Liverpool were allowed into that competition. Liverpool said that the champions should have the chance to defend their trophy - you did, you entered the qualification process and you failed.
Actually we played 3 rounds of qualifying and qualified, then topped our group (that included Chelsea) in the year that Man U didn't get to the knockout.
We were poor in the 1st knockout stage and got beaten by Benfica, but it was right that we were included.
The following year we were at the final again (and were unlucky to lose as we were the better team - though that is swings and roundabouts for 2005 when we were the lucky ones).

People can bitch all they like but Liverpool's CL record is great.

I completely believe that the champions should always defend their title. The only exception being the UEFA Cup. As that is really just division 2 of the European super league the winners should always get a place in the CL.
Image

User avatar
binaryRooster
Posts: 693
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:28 pm
Location: Saturn

Re: France vs Ireland Qualifier

Post by binaryRooster » Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:30 pm

The qualification process was coming in the top four of the premiership - same as it is every year! Liverpool didn't do it so shouldn't have been there. They invented a new qualification entry just for them. Actually don't get me started on that either, bring back the teams that won their leagues playing each other! They should call the competition "The champions and some other teams league". Doesn't really have the same ring does it? it would really bugger up that theme song :D

Anyway, my last point on the ROI issue is that in a sport watched by so many people, we do need some form of video refereeing. it just seems dumb in this day and age for the few people who actually didn't see Henry's handball, to be the people in charge of the game.

psj3809
Posts: 18735
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 3:28 pm

Re: France vs Ireland Qualifier

Post by psj3809 » Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:37 pm

Well feel gutted for the irish. Firstly the 'seeding' was disgraceful in the first place. Yeah FIFA want the 'big teams' there but if the 'big teams' were rubbish and couldnt qualify in the first place they deserve a tough draw in the playoffs or to miss out altogether. So firstly the seeded playoffs was a terrible idea.

Henry could have really made a name for himself (As Talksport were going on about last night) if he said instantly to the ref it was a handball and the goal was disallowed, didnt Robbie Fowler do something similar years back ?

I'm sure the game wont be replayed but its very sad. That controversial goal is just so huge, think of the money lost in Ireland as tons more people would watch the world cup, buy TV's, buy drink/food for parties etc, everyone knows the economy of a country in the world cup goes up as people buy a ton more things.

As for Liverpool and the Champions League, everyone knows the rules, if you dont qualify for the champions league (as last years champions or runners up or anything) you dont get in. Teams change year after year, unfair if one year Barcelona are champions, next year they miss out on qualification and then they get a place given to them (as they were the champs the year before). Everyone knows the rules.

When the Champions league first started it was only the 'champions'. When Arsenal finished 2nd and qualifed (When the champions league expanded) Ferguson was moaning about they shouldnt be in it. Then 'amazingly' when Man Utd finish 2nd yet still qualify for the league Ferguson isnt saying a word !

But if a 'big' country like France, Argentina, England dont qualify for the world cup its a shame as lots of neutrals like watching them but if theyre not good enough theyre not good enough. Playing seeded playoffs was disgusting. If you're last years world cup champs, european champs, premier league champs etc you shouldnt get a 'pass' to get to the final. If you dont qualify as champs you dont qualify. Simple as. If the team were decent in the first place they wouldnt need 'help' to qualify.

But why oh why cant you have a video referee JUST for controversial goals, after the french goal the irish were moaning to the ref (rightly so) and there was a 2 minute gap until they kicked off again. In those 2 minutes you could have easily watched a replay to get a decision. Why wasnt the 4th official checking it on the video and letting the ref know ? When Zidane headbutted that player the ref didnt see that, instead the 4th official saw it on a replay and alerted the ref. Why in those 2 minutes couldnt a 4th official check and see there was a blatant handball and then tell the ref ?

In huge games like this (Specially in ones which results in a ton of money for a countries economy) having the 4th official a minute to view an instant replay is surely needed. I wouldnt have it in every game, eg some championship saturday game but for huge world cup qualifiers its essential.

User avatar
witchfinder
Posts: 3844
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:56 pm
Location: The Cave of Monsters (AKA Stoke!)
Contact:

Re: France vs Ireland Qualifier

Post by witchfinder » Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:43 pm

Ralph Milne's Left Foot wrote:I posted this on another forum, but hope it will answer some things on here?
It probably did, but there was WAY too much text there for me to be bothered to read it all! ;)
Waz wrote:why don't FIFA say "well if the ref had seen it, it'd have been a sending off for deliberate handball so we'll ban the player for 3 games."
Actually if the ref had seen it, the worst it would have been would be a yellow card for deliberate handball. It's only a red card if the handball denies a goalscoring opportunity (i.e. it's deliberate handball by a defender)

In a fair and just world the game would be replayed but by the laws of the game the ref's decision is final and since he didn't see the handball the goal stands and the French go through... Sad but true!

The best we can hope for here is that this incident will finally bring about the use of instant video replays for contentious decisions like most sports (Rugby, Tennis, American Football etc) have already.
The 100k Challenge - 40 Arcade Classics. 2 MAME Cabs. 1 Average Gamer.
Mastertronic Chronicles - Mastertronic C64 Game Collecting and Reviews
My Youtube Channel (featuring Mastertronic, Funspot, REPLAY and more!)

Image

User avatar
the_hawk
Posts: 5843
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:25 pm
Contact:

Re: France vs Ireland Qualifier

Post by the_hawk » Fri Nov 20, 2009 5:14 pm

Psj, twice you've said "everyone knows the rules" well in football the rule is the referee's decision is final! Not "we'll have a replay if the ref makes a poor decision"
You can follow me on Twitter https://twitter.com/DaveySloan
Sponsor Me http://www.justgiving.com/daveysloan2014

OR type 99 to continue

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests