The Beatles

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Fred83
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Re: The Beatles

Post by Fred83 » Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:36 pm

i like and listen to the beatles most days :)

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Spector
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Re: The Beatles

Post by Spector » Wed Sep 09, 2009 6:35 pm

Coopdevil wrote:Cobblers?

Nice, thoughtful answer there thanks for helping the debate.

I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but frankly I find The Beatles to be something of the Emperor's New Clothes. Everybody says they are great, everybody feels obliged to buy the records because a record collection is perceived to be incomplete without them, but nobody listens to them. I strongly believe that in the future, once their original Baby Boomer fan-base has passed away - I believe that the later rock acts of the 60s will be outliving them. I went to see Velvet Revolver a while back in Wolverhampton (didn't think much of them TBH) but I noticed something that struck me as important - the age range of the audience. Three generations worth from old hippies to 12 year old kids. The first time I had noticed this and demographically probably something that couldn't happen until now. This is a uniquely rock thing and shows that the rock acts continue to strike a chord (no pun intended) with younger people, nearly all of which will probably be inspired to form a very bad band, nearly all of whom will appreciate rock bands of the late 60s. This doesn't seem to the case with Beatles fans. They remain predominantly Baby Boomers of late 50s to early 60s and I hazard, huge fans of The Beatles because they are so tied in with a period they remember fondly.
So therefore by that way of thinking, you believe the Britpop scene in the nineties with Blur, Oasis, Ocean Colour Scene, Kula Shaker, Dodgy, The Verve et al was not in any significant way influenced by the Beatles. Is that right?
Coopdevil wrote:
Just because they continue to sell more than REM doesn't mean they remain relevant - if we said they are because they sell then Leona Lewis is probably one of the most influential and important British acts ever.
Leona Lewis hasn't been selling records for forty years. She will be one of the most influential and important British acts ever - if she sells records at her current rate in 2049.
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Re: The Beatles

Post by gman72 » Wed Sep 09, 2009 7:08 pm

Coopdevil wrote:Cobblers?

Nice, thoughtful answer there thanks for helping the debate.

I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but frankly I find The Beatles to be something of the Emperor's New Clothes. Everybody says they are great, everybody feels obliged to buy the records because a record collection is perceived to be incomplete without them, but nobody listens to them. I strongly believe that in the future, once their original Baby Boomer fan-base has passed away - I believe that the later rock acts of the 60s will be outliving them. I went to see Velvet Revolver a while back in Wolverhampton (didn't think much of them TBH) but I noticed something that struck me as important - the age range of the audience. Three generations worth from old hippies to 12 year old kids. The first time I had noticed this and demographically probably something that couldn't happen until now. This is a uniquely rock thing and shows that the rock acts continue to strike a chord (no pun intended) with younger people, nearly all of which will probably be inspired to form a very bad band, nearly all of whom will appreciate rock bands of the late 60s. This doesn't seem to the case with Beatles fans. They remain predominantly Baby Boomers of late 50s to early 60s and I hazard, huge fans of The Beatles because they are so tied in with a period they remember fondly.

Just because they continue to sell more than REM doesn't mean they remain relevant - if we said they are because they sell then Leona Lewis is probably one of the most influential and important British acts ever. I strongly suspect that a lot of their CDs remain in CD towers played once if at all - the record collection equivalent of unread coffee table books bought to impress visitors. Which is a shame really but there you go.
I really don't mean to be rude, coopdevil, but cobblers really is my most carefully choosen response to what you have written. I know it's your opinion and that you're entitled to it but your opinion, in my opinion, is utter cobblers. So much so that I can't even be bothered to correct you, I really can't....But, hey, do carry on...
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Coopdevil
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Re: The Beatles

Post by Coopdevil » Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:35 am

Suit yourself gentlemen - I thought it was an interesting thread of conversation but clearly I've come up against people who aren't interested in listening and can't grasp the concept that the untouchable holiest-of-holies might not be all that important to everyone. I can't see the point of continuing this. Speak to me in 40 years when they've been forgotten. :)
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psj3809
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Re: The Beatles

Post by psj3809 » Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:43 am

Coopdevil wrote:Suit yourself gentlemen - I thought it was an interesting thread of conversation but clearly I've come up against people who aren't interested in listening and can't grasp the concept that the untouchable holiest-of-holies might not be all that important to everyone. I can't see the point of continuing this. Speak to me in 40 years when they've been forgotten. :)
I think its the opposite, it is an interesting conversation but you dont seem to grasp the concept.

The Beatles have influenced a ton of bands, many in the 90's britpop era and continue to do so. One of the biggest bands of the 90's - Oasis obviously were influenced by the Beatles and theyve said time after time they were.

I dont know anyone who listens to Velvet Revolver, a few of my mates tried to listen to it but thought they were dire, not my cup of tea at all. Theres a big age range of Beatles fans, students still love listening to them, have a poster up of John Lennon or a classic Beatles cover. Youre talking like only our mums and dads still like/listen to them and no one younger does ? Again look at all the bands influenced by them.

I'm not a huge Beatles fan, wasnt around back then and despite being a huge fan of Oasis i'm not super keen on the Beatles. But can totally appreciate what they do and theyve influenced many many musicians. Dont get why youre so anti them. Sounds a bit like the kid at school who was the only one slating Star Wars trying to be 'controversial' !

Look how popular the Beatles documentary was when that was on TV, or how popular the album with all the Beatles greatest hits was a while back when they released it. As for 'cant see the point of continuing this' its a bit like 'its my ball and i'm going home' ! If you say something then let people respond and dont stop just because they disagree with you.

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Spector
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Re: The Beatles

Post by Spector » Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:59 am

Coopdevil wrote:Suit yourself gentlemen - I thought it was an interesting thread of conversation but clearly I've come up against people who aren't interested in listening and can't grasp the concept that the untouchable holiest-of-holies might not be all that important to everyone. I can't see the point of continuing this. Speak to me in 40 years when they've been forgotten. :)
Others would argue that when I presented evidence The Beatles were a major influence on post Baby Boomers (ie The Britpop movement), you realised you were checkmated and decided not to carry on.
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stvd
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Re: The Beatles

Post by stvd » Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:35 am

psj3809 wrote:The Beatles have influenced a ton of bands, many in the 90's britpop era and continue to do so. One of the biggest bands of the 90's - Oasis obviously were influenced by the Beatles and theyve said time after time they were.

I made this point earlier. Due to Oasis claiming to have been influenced by the beatles, their fans are "influenced" to like the Beatles. They are completely different. There are a lot of Beatles "fans" out their that don't 'realy' like the Beatles, if their honest, but it would be uncool to say so.
Most of these acts are more likely to resemble (or copy) The Stone Roses, Happy Mondays or the Inspiral Carpets.
None of them sound like the Beatles. Which is probably a good thing ;)
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Re: The Beatles

Post by psj3809 » Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:49 am

stvd wrote:I made this point earlier. Due to Oasis claiming to have been influenced by the beatles, their fans are "influenced" to like the Beatles. They are completely different. There are a lot of Beatles "fans" out their that don't 'realy' like the Beatles, if their honest, but it would be uncool to say so.
Most of these acts are more likely to resemble (or copy) The Stone Roses, Happy Mondays or the Inspiral Carpets.
None of them sound like the Beatles. Which is probably a good thing ;)
I'm a HUGE Oasis fan but still not into the beatles. Flicked over last night and they were playing a ton of Beatles videos, hearing the Beatles 'I am the walrus' made me much prefer the Oasis one, i know probably a sin to some people ! Obviously heard the Oasis version so many more times than the original.

Was interesting seeing the videos last night from the Beatles, a few i hadnt really heard of as i know just the famous hits. Still think they looked quite odd with their moustaches when they went through that 'phase'

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Re: The Beatles

Post by Coopdevil » Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:51 am

I don't feel checkmated at all (I was logging on in under to remove what I posted before, thinking better of it but obviously time and events have overtaken me and it would be unfair to do so as people have replied). Your comment sounds a little smug, a sort of "hey I've won an argument on the internets!" :)

Interesting you mention Brit Pop. What has that left us 15 years on? The only two of note have both recently split up, Blur were of critical reknown, the other one that claimed to be influenced by The Beatles (but never sounded it to my ears at least) haven't been good since 1996 and were frankly embarrasing to a lot of us who loved them when they first appeared (Sorry psj3809!). I always thought you could hear more Beatles in Ocean Colour Scene than Oasis. As a movement (which I suppose it wasn't, perhaps scene is a better word) it hasn't had legs and hasn't achieved much in music post the mid-90s. I still like a lot of this music but probably only because I was there and young at the time.

Please note that I'm not saying Beatles = Not Relevant as everyone thinks they are = Therefore not good. To approach it from the other end I quite like Elvis Presley but I'll never claim he's relevant to music today - ironically though if you feel The Beatles are massively influential and relevant today then so perhaps must be Elvis as a big influence on them!

My original argument (first post) was that The Beatles aren't as relevant as a lot of people think they are and I offered my thoughts as to why. This is essentially what I am talking about.

Now this is poor form in an online debate because I could be making this up but - talking to a mate over the England match last night who is a Beatles fan about this and I was surprised that he admitted he no longer bothers listening to them. He said in the "pro relevance" column of any debate not to overlook the Beatles importance in moving music from bands playing songs written by professional songwriters towards the modern concept of a band writing their own material and being formed in order to record their own material. This is true and perhaps this is a more important legacy than what they actually wrote. Something he added in my what we can call my column is that their solo careers are rather unspectacular (to put it politely) with only Harrison coming out of it with any credit. This doesn't allow for a "Paul Weller" whereby new fans discover the artist and then go back and discover his older non-solo material.
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Re: The Beatles

Post by Coopdevil » Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:54 am

stvd wrote: Due to Oasis claiming to have been influenced by the beatles, their fans are "influenced" to like the Beatles. They are completely different.
Glad to see I'm not the only one that thinks this! I've long noticed this dischord between what Oasis said was important to them and what sounded like it was important to them. It's a bit like Led Zep saying great things about Elvis and his influence on them - what they really mean is that they were fans, not that he influenced their music.
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psj3809
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Re: The Beatles

Post by psj3809 » Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:08 am

Coopdevil wrote:the other one that claimed to be influenced by The Beatles (but never sounded it to my ears at least) haven't been good since 1996 and were frankly embarrasing to a lot of us who loved them when they first appeared (Sorry psj3809!). I always thought you could hear more Beatles in Ocean Colour Scene than Oasis.
Kick a fan when hes already down about them splitting up ;) Agree about OCS i always thought they sounded more 'Beatles-e'.

BUT havent been good since 96 !! The last two albums were a good return to form, must admit Standing on the shoulder of giants was for fans only, Be Here Now was good but one reason i wasnt keen was due to all the bandwagonners who suddenly arrived and then left (thankfully). Believe me if Oasis released a dire album i would be slating it totally, not one of those fans who thinks everything they wrote (Including Little James) is amazing. But every album theyve done over the years have had some very good tunes on them, granted not every tune was amazing (Eg DM or WTSMG) but a lot of good tunes never the less.

I just find a lot of the people who dislike Oasis now havent even heard their last few albums but automatically say 'havent done anything since...' etc. I mean standing on the shoulder of giants has a fair few good uns on there, Gas Panic is a classic, wasnt even a single. Stop Crying your heart out is one of my favourite songs on Heathen Chemistry. Their latest album really is one of my favourites, many good songs on there.

The frustrating thing is the last time i saw them at Wembley in July it was the best performance i've seen them do (Seen them about 14 times) so its frustrating theyre breaking up now.

I'm kinda glad Oasis have gone down the same path and havent detracted too much from it. I believe if they did they would be slated. Blur and Radiohead often produce weird abstract albums the last few and seem to get away from it, i used to love both bands but due to their past few albums i've firmly gone off them. Love all their early stuff but the last few Radiohead albums i'm not a fan of at all.

But in a way i'm glad its just the hardcore fans with Oasis now, too many people who liked pop acts seemed to jump on the Oasis bandwagon back in the 90's, glad theyve gone. Same with Kings of Leon, look how many kids suddenly like them now, i mean their latest album, their biggest hit was their 4th album ! So many people havent got their earlier albums which is a shame. The latest has many hits on it but i much prefer the earlier 3 when not as many people jumped on their bandwagon.

Anyway sorry back to the Beatles....

Just dont think they were overrated at all, glad they didnt sell out and let everyone of their songs be an advert for something

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Spector
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Re: The Beatles

Post by Spector » Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:27 am

Coopdevil wrote:Now this is poor form in an online debate because I could be making this up but - talking to a mate over the England match last night who is a Beatles fan about this and I was surprised that he admitted he no longer bothers listening to them. He said in the "pro relevance" column of any debate not to overlook the Beatles importance in moving music from bands playing songs written by professional songwriters towards the modern concept of a band writing their own material and being formed in order to record their own material. This is true and perhaps this is a more important legacy than what they actually wrote.
If that's the case, why is it that MOJO magazine's Top 100 albums of all time poll- voted by many of the major pop/rock artists of the last forty years- featured three Beatles albums in the Top ten, more than any other group in history? Was this a conspiracy by rock's leading lights to promote them? Do you think they were lying, or do they simply not know what they are talking about?
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Re: The Beatles

Post by pforson » Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:52 am

Spector wrote:or do they simply not know what they are talking about?
You might be on to something there...
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Re: The Beatles

Post by Coopdevil » Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:00 am

Don't we rip every Top 100 retro games, Top 100 consoles list that comes out to tiny little pieces? :)
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Spector
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Re: The Beatles

Post by Spector » Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:07 am

Coopdevil wrote:Don't we rip every Top 100 retro games, Top 100 consoles list that comes out to tiny little pieces? :)
I would say they do know what they are talking about, since they actually made careers in the music industry, and in the case of some of the voters, helped shape it.

If I remember that poll right, Rubber Soul was ten, The White Album was seven, and Revolver was number three. Going by your posts, I suppose you would say that not only do these albums not deserve to be in the top ten, but shouldn't even be in the top 100?
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