What happens when you die?

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Re: What happens when you die?

Post by markopoloman » Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:30 pm

We are all free to believe in what ever we want. Ant and his Mermaids included :D

I'm an Orthodox Christian - I believe in God and the gubbins that goes along with Orthodox Christianity, what I will not do is laugh at others beliefs or disbeliefs. I'm happy, I know that the world is older than 6000, I agree with evolution and creationism to a certain extent, I never push my beliefs onto others (many of the forumites have met me - I'm deffo no preacher!) and I think, like being in a pub, it is always dodgy bringing up Religion as at some point someone will be offended.
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Re: What happens when you die?

Post by pratty » Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:57 am

Antiriad2097 wrote:religious people have this idealism about them that everything is somehow going to turn out great.
That is a good point. Naturally I find classically religious people to be optimistic of an afterlife, and a good one at that, at least for them. Where as most atheists seem pessimistic, and certain that there is nothing after death and nothing of themselves contines. Why not at least a more neutral "could go either way" view from atheists, seeing as we can't be sure either way? Perhaps it's better to keep expectaions low and assume the worst, although I suppose if there is no afterlife we won't be around to feel the crushing disappointment.
Antiriad2097 wrote:On the other hand, I'd probably be destined for whatever hell exists.
I like to think that if the Christian God exists he will surely sympathise with those who didn't believe in him. Even God would struggle to believe in himself if he was in our position. Though the fact that the enternal firery idea of hell was and can be conceived by us makes me confident it doesn't exist, the afterlife could be beyond both our scientific understanding and our imagination.

Imagine though, what if paradise awaits us all regardless, think how many people have been killed and subsequently sent there as an intended punishment. That'll teach 'em. :lol:

Perhaps not knowning about the afterlife (including if there even is one) is imperitive to our living experience, makings us appeciate life more, causing us to create our own purpose. I'm reminded of a quote from the movie Troy:

“The gods envy us. They envy us because we’re mortal, because any moment may be our last. Everything is more beautiful because we’re doomed. You will never be lovelier than you are now. We will never be here again.”
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Re: What happens when you die?

Post by Antiriad2097 » Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:09 am

I'm not certain of no afterlife, since I'm not sure what life is in the first place.

We don't know where that comes from.

My physical body will break down, whatever energy I have will dissipate, my own personal conscious as 'me' will no doubt disappear, but all that stuff gets recycled. Whatever parts of me are now, will probably live again at some point.

In an infinite universe of infinite combinations, there's a probability, however unlikely, that those components might just someday make 'me' again.

I reckon there's at least as much chance of my second coming as Jeebus'.

No gods involved in that though, just phsyics, chemistry, biology and whatever magic brings those together.
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Re: What happens when you die?

Post by RetroBob » Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:15 am

Unlikely you'll get a pass as a non believer, he is a pretty jealous and spiteful jerk according to the old testament.

Non belief in God is not pessimism - are Christians pessimistic because they don't believe that a lunar eclipse is a dragon eating the moon, like the Vikings did? To the contrary, I think people who don't believe in god can be very positive about life, that it is amazing that we are even here, that we should make the most of our time and try to understand the world and universe we live in.
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Re: What happens when you die?

Post by pratty » Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:46 am

RetroBob wrote:Non belief in God is not pessimism - are Christians pessimistic because they don't believe that a lunar eclipse is a dragon eating the moon, like the Vikings did? To the contrary, I think people who don't believe in god can be very positive about life, that it is amazing that we are even here, that we should make the most of our time and try to understand the world and universe we live in.
I'd agree that not beleiving in God isn't pessimistic, never said it was, I was refering to their attitude to death and afterlife, rather than life itself. I just said most atheists I know seem very certain that there isn't an afterlife of any kind, rather than say they can't be sure. I suppose it depends on your outlook though, personally I find the idea of completely ceasing to exist in any form to be a negative concept.

Suppose we had the option to live for ever through technology, should we? I'm quite curious about what may or not happen after death. And afterall death is natural and seemingly intended, and was 'good enough' for generations and generations of people before us. Perhaps even as an atheist I would roll the dice and take my chances with death, after a natural long life of course.
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Re: What happens when you die?

Post by jdanddiet » Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:00 am

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Re: What happens when you die?

Post by Antiriad2097 » Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:23 pm

pratty wrote:
RetroBob wrote:Non belief in God is not pessimism - are Christians pessimistic because they don't believe that a lunar eclipse is a dragon eating the moon, like the Vikings did? To the contrary, I think people who don't believe in god can be very positive about life, that it is amazing that we are even here, that we should make the most of our time and try to understand the world and universe we live in.
I'd agree that not beleiving in God isn't pessimistic, never said it was, I was refering to their attitude to death and afterlife, rather than life itself. I just said most atheists I know seem very certain that there isn't an afterlife of any kind, rather than say they can't be sure. I suppose it depends on your outlook though, personally I find the idea of completely ceasing to exist in any form to be a negative concept.

Suppose we had the option to live for ever through technology, should we? I'm quite curious about what may or not happen after death. And afterall death is natural and seemingly intended, and was 'good enough' for generations and generations of people before us. Perhaps even as an atheist I would roll the dice and take my chances with death, after a natural long life of course.
Death as an 'intended' feature of life suggests a design for life, rather than the accident of science we generally believe it to be. To believe that death is intended suggests a belief in a creator that had that intention.

Should ceasing to exist be a negative concept? Can you not accept that? Even for a devout aetheist its only the id that would cease, whatever particles and energy constitute your body will remain, just somewhat more widespread than before.

Given the chance, I'd like to live for longer, but not so sure about 'forever'. But I guess that depends on what you consider living? What if that life is remaining in a worn out husk of body? Not much fun imho.
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Re: What happens when you die?

Post by sscott » Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:28 pm

Antiriad2097 wrote:
pratty wrote:
RetroBob wrote:Non belief in God is not pessimism - are Christians pessimistic because they don't believe that a lunar eclipse is a dragon eating the moon, like the Vikings did? To the contrary, I think people who don't believe in god can be very positive about life, that it is amazing that we are even here, that we should make the most of our time and try to understand the world and universe we live in.
I'd agree that not beleiving in God isn't pessimistic, never said it was, I was refering to their attitude to death and afterlife, rather than life itself. I just said most atheists I know seem very certain that there isn't an afterlife of any kind, rather than say they can't be sure. I suppose it depends on your outlook though, personally I find the idea of completely ceasing to exist in any form to be a negative concept.

Suppose we had the option to live for ever through technology, should we? I'm quite curious about what may or not happen after death. And afterall death is natural and seemingly intended, and was 'good enough' for generations and generations of people before us. Perhaps even as an atheist I would roll the dice and take my chances with death, after a natural long life of course.
Death as an 'intended' feature of life suggests a design for life, rather than the accident of science we generally believe it to be. To believe that death is intended suggests a belief in a creator that had that intention.

Should ceasing to exist be a negative concept? Can you not accept that? Even for a devout aetheist its only the id that would cease, whatever particles and energy constitute your body will remain, just somewhat more widespread than before.

Given the chance, I'd like to live for longer, but not so sure about 'forever'. But I guess that depends on what you consider living? What if that life is remaining in a worn out husk of body? Not much fun imho.
Nah, death is essential for evolution, bacteria live very short lives so become resistant to antibiotics,death has benefits for the long term survival of a species. Entropy ruins everything in the end anyway.
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Re: What happens when you die?

Post by Antiriad2097 » Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:40 pm

That's just how things are though. Its not an 'intention' that it's that way. Intent suggests there is actually a reason for life in the first place. I subscribe to the school of thought that there isn't any meaning to life, it just is.

Evolution isn't a design, it's just a description of how we've found things to happen in our neck of the woods. That things die is part of that, but it's possible that this isn't always the way. We just haven't found anything that behaves that way since our experience of the universe is minute. Perhaps the rules of our universe dictate that this will always be the way, perhaps not. Maybe somewhere out there there's a planet where nothing dies, it just continually evolves. Hard to be sure since we don't really know what life is.
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Re: What happens when you die?

Post by pratty » Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:02 pm

Antiriad2097 wrote:
pratty wrote:
RetroBob wrote:Non belief in God is not pessimism - are Christians pessimistic because they don't believe that a lunar eclipse is a dragon eating the moon, like the Vikings did? To the contrary, I think people who don't believe in god can be very positive about life, that it is amazing that we are even here, that we should make the most of our time and try to understand the world and universe we live in.
I'd agree that not beleiving in God isn't pessimistic, never said it was, I was refering to their attitude to death and afterlife, rather than life itself. I just said most atheists I know seem very certain that there isn't an afterlife of any kind, rather than say they can't be sure. I suppose it depends on your outlook though, personally I find the idea of completely ceasing to exist in any form to be a negative concept.

Suppose we had the option to live for ever through technology, should we? I'm quite curious about what may or not happen after death. And afterall death is natural and seemingly intended, and was 'good enough' for generations and generations of people before us. Perhaps even as an atheist I would roll the dice and take my chances with death, after a natural long life of course.
Death as an 'intended' feature of life suggests a design for life, rather than the accident of science we generally believe it to be. To believe that death is intended suggests a belief in a creator that had that intention.
Perhaps intended wasn't the right word then, I only meant intended in so far as it was 'intended' that we are born, that we breathe, that we grow, then we die, as a natural course of events. Essentially I meant dying is something we just do.
Antiriad2097 wrote:Should ceasing to exist be a negative concept? Can you not accept that? Even for a devout aetheist its only the id that would cease, whatever particles and energy constitute your body will remain, just somewhat more widespread than before.
Isn't that very possible consequence of death something which motivates most of us to put death off for as long as possible? Granted it's not the only thing to live for, but avoiding ceasing to be has to be right up there. I've become quite attached to myself, my sense of self, my identity, my individuality, my perspective. Perhaps it's egotisical but if my self - my conscious soul, for want of a better term, does end with death, then the pospect of saying goodbye to myself might be more distressing than saying goodbye to this universe.

The prospect of losing loved ones is a distressing thought for most people as it is, you'd probably be considered callous if you didn't feel that way, and that's with the silver lining that at least we're still here. So is it not logical to also feel the same way about losing yourself? The only comforting thing I suppose is that once it happens we wouldn't be around to grieve it.
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Re: What happens when you die?

Post by Antiriad2097 » Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:43 am

I'm not suggesting its something I'm looking forward to, merely that it is inevitable and I have accepted that. I don't think of it as either positive or negative, it's just an unchangeable fact. I can perhaps delay it a little, but really a few years here or there are fairly inconsequential to the universe at large.
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Re: What happens when you die?

Post by Mancman » Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:59 am

pratty wrote:
Isn't that very possible consequence of death something which motivates most of us to put death off for as long as possible? Granted it's not the only thing to live for, but avoiding ceasing to be has to be right up there. I've become quite attached to myself, my sense of self, my identity, my individuality, my perspective. Perhaps it's egotisical but if my self - my conscious soul, for want of a better term, does end with death, then the pospect of saying goodbye to myself might be more distressing than saying goodbye to this universe.

The prospect of losing loved ones is a distressing thought for most people as it is, you'd probably be considered callous if you didn't feel that way, and that's with the silver lining that at least we're still here. So is it not logical to also feel the same way about losing yourself? The only comforting thing I suppose is that once it happens we wouldn't be around to grieve it.
It's quite an amazing thought isn't it? When we die there is no more, nothing. It's really difficult though, to come to terms with, also even trying to imagine your own consciousness disappearing.

I guess it makes you want to make the most of the time we do have.

I would love nothing more than to believe in fairy tales of an afterlife. It sounds quite appealing, the thought of meeting up with dead relatives and waitng for others. I guess it's one of the main reasons why religion in general is so popular. They give people a meaning in life, this isn't the end and we will live on forever, rather than the reality of eternal sleep.

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Re: What happens when you die?

Post by Antiriad2097 » Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:58 pm

Do you need religion to believe that? I don't think so. Belief in an afterlife does not require belief in gods. Maybe it's just a belief in alternative sciences, where just as we have matter and antimatter, so we have life and afterlife? The two concepts of religion and afterlife are not inherently linked, it's just common that most religions will include it.

I don't think it's difficult to come to terms with an end. I'm more concerned with 'will the end hurt', since once I've ended I'll know no more about it. I'd hate for those last moments and thoughts to be of pain though. Slowly sinking away as if to sleep, drifting apart, that would be fine and perhaps relaxing, an ultimate final peace.
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Re: What happens when you die?

Post by Mancman » Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:05 pm

No, I guess you don't need religion to believe in an afterlife. There are plenty of scientific theories out there supporting the idea of your 'essence' continuing after you die. Have a look at biocentrism and the biocentric universe that I mentioned earlier, to me these ideas make a lot more sense and are far more plausible than any religion I know of.

For me, the end can be difficult to come to terms with. Not that I'm in any way scared of it hurting but the fact that I'll never be able to see my loved one's again can be upsetting.

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Re: What happens when you die?

Post by crusto » Sat Jul 12, 2014 10:05 pm

I wonder if I'll have a mortgage in the next life...
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