Karen Matthews

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clarance
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Post by clarance » Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:46 pm

FatTrucker wrote: Living on benefit is a lifestyle 'choice' for most of these people, don't let them tell you any different.
You make lots of very valid points FatTrucker, but I think that you are just plain wrong here - to say that people would choose to live on welfare, given any other option (Lifestyle choice?) is missing the point that I was original making.

These people are lazy, they are dishonest, they are violent and all the rest, but they are only a product of their environment, and really don't realise that there are any other options for them.

Now you can say that you came from a disadvantaged environment and yet have managed to better yourself (same here), but you had other factors such as good parenting that helped in your favour. Many do not.
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Post by RetroAerosmith » Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:57 pm

The best quote ive ever heard and agree with is

"Cant feed them?....dont breed them!.."


Being a gay bloke im glad im not involved with the karens of this land....although i know it takes 2 to make a child and it seems most blokes are classed as heroes with the amount of women they sleep with yet women are always classed as sl ags.

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Kenz
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Re: Karen Matthews

Post by Kenz » Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:58 pm

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http://www.psytronik.net/ - New games for retro gaming systems!
http://www.binaryzone.org/retrostore/ - Binary Zone Retro Store!
http://psytronik.blogspot.com/ - Psytronik Software Blog now online!

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FatTrucker
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Post by FatTrucker » Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:58 pm

clarance wrote:
FatTrucker wrote: Living on benefit is a lifestyle 'choice' for most of these people, don't let them tell you any different.
You make lots of very valid points FatTrucker, but I think that you are just plain wrong here - to say that people would choose to live on welfare, given any other option (Lifestyle choice?) is missing the point that I was original making.

These people are lazy, they are dishonest, they are violent and all the rest, but they are only a product of their environment, and really don't realise that there are any other options for them.

Now you can say that you came from a disadvantaged environment and yet have managed to better yourself (same here), but you had other factors such as good parenting that helped in your favour. Many do not.
Sorry mate, but I'm not. As romantic as it might be to fiddle with the notion that these people are created by their environment and kept there by a confused Middle Class majority who misunderstand them is wrong.

I've worked with thousands of these people over the years. In the main the one's I've dealt with who clearly choose to live on benefit do so because they don't want to have to get up and go out to work. There are tens of thousands of women, living on Income Support, having all their bills paid, all while having undeclared partners living there who are earning a living.
Large numbers of my families who were claiming income support enjoyed more frequent and better holidays than I did, had nicer homes and drove better cars.
We aren't talking about a corrupt few, the problem is absolutely epidemic. I don't say any of these things because of an avid belief in the Daily Mail and I don't disagree with you from an unconditional hatred of the Guardian, I back up the the things I know from years and years of living and working in the middle of it and dealing with all of the associated support, care and criminal justice agencies that form the walls of the life they choose to live.

If you offered most of them a job paying £50,000 a year, they would take it and work hard at it. However if you offered them the opportunity to work hard for more or less exactly what they are getting already they would tell you to f**k off. And that's not because of their environment, or their parents, or Mr Fortesque Smyth who lives in his 3 bed semi in the better part of town, its because they would rather sit and be fed than feed themselves.

The problem is almost exclusively caused by a welfare state that allows them to live a very comfortable life without working if that's what they choose to do. The fact that if you offered them enough of an incentive almost all of these people would suddenly, magically be able to break out of their social malaise kind of proves the point that its not the ability, or opportunity that holds them back, its just the will.
Last edited by FatTrucker on Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dark Reaper
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Post by Dark Reaper » Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:01 pm

FatTrucker wrote:Seriously though, I'm one of the 'Disadvantaged'. I was raised by very working class parents on a very working class Council Estate, surrounded by violence, drug taking, and idolatry through the vast majority of my schooling and childhood.
I was lucky in that I had moral parents, who worked (hard) for a living rather than claim benefit (and we had relatively f**k all when I was a kid), it doesn't matter where you live, you always have a choice and anyone who blames their environment for turning them into a scumbag is just looking for excuses to justify their behaviour.
I completely agree with this. I grew up on a council estate in Liverpool and I like to think that I turned out ok (granted I'm a socially inept hermit who spends most of his spare time playing computer games but that can't be blamed on where I grew up :D ). My dad has always been self employed so the whole attitude to work in my house was that if you want something, you have to work for it.
FatTrucker wrote:Living on benefit is a lifestyle 'choice' for most of these people, don't let them tell you any different.

Another idea is to link the level of benefit you're entitled to to the amount of National Insurance you've paid. That way someone that has worked a lot and put a lot into the system, quite fairly gets more support from that system when they need it. Those that have put f**k all into the system get a weekly supply of Cabbage, Taters and Milk.
I'd be in favour of a benefits system where at you initially got a fairly high amount which then gradually reduced the longer that you were unemployed before stopping completely after a set period. That would give people who have lost their job through no fault of their own a decent safety net but also the incentive to get back into work. To be honest, I think that a period of 12-18 months would be fair as that is sufficient time to get a job of some kind. Obviously there would have to be measures put in place to stop people signing off & then on again to get the higher levels of benefits but I'm sure that could be worked out.
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Post by RetroAerosmith » Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:02 pm

totally agree with you trucker....ive got cousins who have never worked driving landrovers with private plates,taking exotic holidays,claiming their lone parents,selling and growing dope,selling imported fags and tobacco....
I worked 50 --60 hr weeks and am chuffed everything i own i worked hard for...just a kick in the tits that there are those who dont have to.

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Re: Karen Matthews

Post by boggyb68 » Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:07 pm

Kenz wrote:Image

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Well mines the hoodie... don't like the look of yours much.... :)

B.
Pinkle Squirmy Blip Blip Blip

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Post by rossi46 » Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:09 pm

FatTrucker wrote: Large numbers of my families who were claiming income support enjoyed more frequent and better holidays than I did, had nicer homes and drove better cars.

The problem is almost exclusively caused by a welfare state that allows them to live a very comfortable life without working if that's what they choose to do.
Spot on. My wife is a team leader on one of the community psychiatric nurse teams and she quite often moans to me about us not being able to afford some of the holidays, cars and general lifestyle of some of her "patients".

They get all manner of allowances for everything and often have more disposable income, ie after EVERYTHING'S been paid, than my wife and I combined.

You just have to have a learning disability. It makes me sick.
Thoughts and prayers.

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FatTrucker
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Post by FatTrucker » Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:12 pm

rossi46 wrote:
FatTrucker wrote: Large numbers of my families who were claiming income support enjoyed more frequent and better holidays than I did, had nicer homes and drove better cars.

The problem is almost exclusively caused by a welfare state that allows them to live a very comfortable life without working if that's what they choose to do.
Spot on. My wife is a team leader on one of the community psychiatry nurse teams and she quite often moans to me about us not being able to afford some of the holidays, cars and general lifestyle of some of her "patients".

They get all manner of allowances for everything and often have more disposable income, ie after EVERYTHING'S been paid, than my wife and I combined.

You just have to have a learning disability. It makes me sick.
ADHD FTW!!. I think just about every badly parented, uncontrolled little monster on my patches had parents receiving lots of extra support because their child wasn't naughty, and they weren't bad parents, the reason he misbehaved was ADHD.......Personally I think it relates directly to too much Sunny D.

It may well be a proper medical condition, but surely there can't be that many kids suffering from it.
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Post by sscott » Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:13 pm

To me this comes down to the perception of free will, either people are a product of their society/genes or they can make important life decisions to change, some people work there way out of poverty, others stay there. If you come from a tough background, wouldn't you want better for your children? A complex issue but I can't except that most people can't change for the better.

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Post by clarance » Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:33 pm

FatTrucker wrote: The problem is almost exclusively caused by a welfare state that allows them to live a very comfortable life without working if that's what they choose to do. The fact that if you offered them enough of an incentive almost all of these people would suddenly, magically be able to break out of their social malaise kind of proves the point that its not the ability, or opportunity that holds them back, its just the will.
This is essentially my point, but you have to ask why there is no will in the first place.

Intrinsically these people are just the same as those in any other strata of society, fate has just dealt them a bad hand and put them on the bottom rung, and from there its rather daunting to even look upwards.

I've seen plenty of people who hold down a steady job and 'contribute to society' who are just as lazy, nasty and morally defunct as those who live on welfare.

Disclaimer:
I have seldom read The Guardian. :wink:
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Post by Fred83 » Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:37 pm

mmm thank guys :lol:

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Post by clarance » Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:40 pm

sscott wrote:To me this comes down to the perception of free will, either people are a product of their society/genes or they can make important life decisions to change
This is the crux of the arguement.

Can I also state for the record that council estate girls move me...
Death may be your Santa Claus.

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FatTrucker
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Post by FatTrucker » Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:42 pm

clarance wrote:
FatTrucker wrote: The problem is almost exclusively caused by a welfare state that allows them to live a very comfortable life without working if that's what they choose to do. The fact that if you offered them enough of an incentive almost all of these people would suddenly, magically be able to break out of their social malaise kind of proves the point that its not the ability, or opportunity that holds them back, its just the will.
This is essentially my point, but you have to ask why there is no will in the first place.

Intrinsically these people are just the same as those in any other strata of society, fate has just dealt them a bad hand and put them on the bottom rung, and from there its rather daunting to even look upwards.

I've seen plenty of people who hold down a steady job and 'contribute to society' who are just as lazy, nasty and morally defunct as those who live on welfare.

Disclaimer:
I have seldom read The Guardian. :wink:
No it hasn't. We aren't talking about people living on the breadline who can't conceive of a better future, but people who actively manipulate and dishonestly make use of a benefit system to finance a lifestyle that they would otherwise have to work hard to enjoy.

Most of these people aren't excluded from anything, they have a very nice quality of life. The disparity between the face they present to the social agencies, and everyone else is a very different one to the face they assume once their front-door is shut.

There are many, many thousands of very obviously disadvantaged people who need something like the Welfare state to help them, but there are in almost equal measure people who see the welfare state as a way to have the lifestyle they want without having to work to achieve it.

These people have no shame, they don't feel a sense of exclusion, in many cases they have far more confidence than you or I in any given situation, so adept are they at assuming the various roles that justify their demands from the state. They choose the life and environment they have not because they can't escape from it, but because the choices they make and the lifestyle they've chosen wouldn't be possible outside it.

In all honesty those ideas about social order and environmental factors are about 30 years out of date. They just aren't relevant to the way things work today.
Last edited by FatTrucker on Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Feel free to add me on XBL.
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Post by Fred83 » Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:45 pm

often wonder what happen if the country decided just to stop working,god knows the taxpayers get screwed anyway

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