Commodore 16

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stardust
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Re: Commodore 16

Post by stardust » Sat Apr 16, 2011 12:47 am

I am not aware you have answered my question. Every time I go to this page, I will automatically go to page 6. I see no new posts and then go to other site. I just didn't notice there is a page 7 that time. Until today I find there is a page 7 of this forum and your posts. Thank you so much for helping me unfold several childhood magic, TMR
I am playing modern games nowadays. Playing World of Warcraft and StarCraft II 4vs4 (as I will probably lost a game in 1VS1 or 2vs2 ha ha). I like C16, as this is my first computer.

andyc
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Re: Commodore 16

Post by andyc » Sat Apr 16, 2011 2:50 am

Oddly, since you bumped it, I just read that too. Very good description by TMR though I am curious as to why you'd store a complete mask for every frame of the sprite. What I'd tend to do on the CPC is have a 256 byte lookup table so I could quickly get the mask value from the screen byte. Is it just too cumbersome to do that in 6502 (the Z80's plethora of registers do come in handy for this sort of thing) or is there some other reason for favouring that way?

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TMR
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Re: Commodore 16

Post by TMR » Sat Apr 16, 2011 5:24 am

andyc wrote:Oddly, since you bumped it, I just read that too. Very good description by TMR though I am curious as to why you'd store a complete mask for every frame of the sprite.
For a generic description like that i felt it better to have a mask for each animation frame since there might be significant differences between each (that spinning purple thingy in my avatar for example). It's a catch all solution so there's always going to be room for optimisations. =-)
andyc wrote:What I'd tend to do on the CPC is have a 256 byte lookup table so I could quickly get the mask value from the screen byte. Is it just too cumbersome to do that in 6502 (the Z80's plethora of registers do come in handy for this sort of thing) or is there some other reason for favouring that way?
i'm not entirely sure how this would work, but i know that the CPC gets two mode 0 pixels out of one byte so i'd assume the C16's way of storing 2:1 ratio pixels four to a byte would mean it'd need modification or at least more lookup...?

The 6502's lack of internal registers doesn't get in the way as much as it'd appear on paper, the zero page helps out hugely - i had a quick go at writing a compiled sprite routine for the Atari 8-bit (it has a more linear screen buffer in bitmap mode than the C16 or C64 so was a better test subject) after you talked about them in a previous discussion and that used pairs of zero page locations for addresses in the same way the Z80 would use register pairs.

andyc
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Re: Commodore 16

Post by andyc » Sat Apr 16, 2011 1:41 pm

TMR wrote:hat the CPC gets two mode 0 pixels out of one byte so i'd assume the C16's way of storing 2:1 ratio pixels four to a byte would mean it'd need modification or at least more lookup...?
It shouldn't, as the same thing is done in Mode 1 too. Essentially the idea is that if you treat one of the possible colours as transparent, you can infer the value of the mask directly from the byte of sprite data. So as long as you can do a fast index into a 256 byte table, which presumably the zero page can be used for, you can fetch the correct mask byte by using the sprite data byte as an index. It does mean having one less colour available for sprites which is a bit more of an issue in a 4 colour display, but the memory savings are usually more than worth it.

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TMR
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Re: Commodore 16

Post by TMR » Sat Apr 16, 2011 2:36 pm

andyc wrote:It shouldn't, as the same thing is done in Mode 1 too. Essentially the idea is that if you treat one of the possible colours as transparent, you can infer the value of the mask directly from the byte of sprite data. So as long as you can do a fast index into a 256 byte table, which presumably the zero page can be used for, you can fetch the correct mask byte by using the sprite data byte as an index.
Ah, i see what you mean now, sorry! The zero page wouldn't be needed for that as such, accessing a 256 or less byte table can be done with just the one index register - lda masktable,x will work in four cycles as long as a page boundary isn't crossed.
andyc wrote:It does mean having one less colour available for sprites which is a bit more of an issue in a 4 colour display, but the memory savings are usually more than worth it.
i had a think just now and reckon it's six commands for what you're talking about compared to just four with independent masks and that, along with having all four colours rather than three, would probably be the more attractive method on a 6502-based machine.

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Timothy Lumsden
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Re: Commodore 16

Post by Timothy Lumsden » Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:59 pm

if I may pick the great C16/plus 4 brain:

- my plus 4 signal has gone really fuzzy and rolls. It's currently via the usual Rf to Aerial lead. In anyone's experience, will getting a video output lead cure this, or is the fault fundamental no matter which output port I'm using.

- and my bonus question: Hyperforce - is this game any good
?

thanks in advance
TL

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TMR
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Re: Commodore 16

Post by TMR » Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:27 pm

Timothy Lumsden wrote:- my plus 4 signal has gone really fuzzy and rolls. It's currently via the usual Rf to Aerial lead. In anyone's experience, will getting a video output lead cure this, or is the fault fundamental no matter which output port I'm using.


Guessing a little obviously, but i'd expect these problems to be caused by the RF modulator, the monitor port doesn't pass through that so shouldn't suffer from the same issue.

Timothy Lumsden wrote:- and my bonus question: Hyperforce - is this game any good?
i didn't like any of Tony Takoushi's 8-bit games personally; Hyperforce was trying extremely hard to be original and the result was, to paraphrase a contemporary review, something you could get a high score from by sticking the joystick into a washing machine.

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Timothy Lumsden
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Re: Commodore 16

Post by Timothy Lumsden » Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:30 pm

cheers TMR. think i might go for one of those 5pin din to scart jobbies they sell on ebay.

Tony Takoushi - is that the same guy who used to be in C&VG or some other old mag?

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TMR
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Re: Commodore 16

Post by TMR » Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:58 pm

Timothy Lumsden wrote:Tony Takoushi - is that the same guy who used to be in C&VG or some other old mag?
That's him yes, i think he was, at one point, complaining about the lack of originality in games on the back page of C&VG and writing code that demonstrated why originality doesn't necessarily make for a decent game!

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Hiro
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Re: Commodore 16

Post by Hiro » Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:25 pm

I think everything has been said in these 8 pages... except for a game that's not been named: Hustler.

Not that it was outstanding, but I have fond memories of it and I remember I loaded it so many times... maybe because I liked the music :) Still a good billiard game.
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Oblisky
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Re: Commodore 16

Post by Oblisky » Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:08 am

I got my +4 when I was 7. It was my first computer that I have fond memories of. The relatively short loading times compared to spectrum were good too. Games i remember are-

Treasure Island (without the annoying bit at the start that spectrum version had)
Fire Ant
Kickstart
Big Mac
Arthurnoid (better than arkanoid imo)

Theres a few others i cant remember the name of too.

stayAwhile
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Re: Commodore 16

Post by stayAwhile » Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:46 am

I love my Plus four but one thing that confuses me is there actually a huge difference between the quality of plus four and c16 games for example the only oner i have seen is jet set willy on plus four is a bit more glitchy but yeah more c16 please RG
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adippm82
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Re: Commodore 16

Post by adippm82 » Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:15 pm

Oblisky wrote:I got my +4 when I was 7. It was my first computer that I have fond memories of. The relatively short loading times compared to spectrum were good too. Games i remember are-

Treasure Island (without the annoying bit at the start that spectrum version had)
Fire Ant
Kickstart
Big Mac
Arthurnoid (better than arkanoid imo)

Theres a few others i cant remember the name of too.
All good little games, especially Arthurnoid, except for the hideous sound that rapidly becomes annoying.
stayAwhile wrote:I love my Plus four but one thing that confuses me is there actually a huge difference between the quality of plus four and c16 games for example the only oner i have seen is jet set willy on plus four is a bit more glitchy but yeah more c16 please RG
Out of 101 games I have for Plus 4/C16, there are just 11 that are Plus 4 only, Saboteur, Mercenary, Out On A Limb, Terra Nova, Jump Jet, BridgeHead, Strip Poker, Karate King, Ace, Ace 2, and Adventures In Time, which is a brilliant recent homebrew release.

The difference between Plus 4 versions and C16 can be night and day, take Saboteur for instance, the Plus 4 one is pretty much the same as the C64 port, but the C16 game is the stuff of nightmares, plays in a tiny screen with no sound and stick men shuffling about.

Others such as Bridgehead just load in one go and add a couple of levels.

A game I got hold of recently is C16 Who Dares Wins II, at first I was quite impressed, did not look a million miles away from the C64 version, really quite a feat to cram it into 12k, until I realised I could not move diagonally, which makes playing it a pain in the rear end to play.

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Spector
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Re: Commodore 16

Post by Spector » Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:29 pm

Scooby Doo was actually a reasonable conversion for the C16 when compared to the C64 one. The spooky castle setting didn't really suit the Commodore 8-bits colour scheme, but it did a fair job, only missing the duck move IIRC. Commando however was Elite at their worst. Dorks Dilemma is another I remember having some fun with. Some of these games left a huge impression between 1984-86, but after that the C16 dropped out for me.
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adippm82
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Re: Commodore 16

Post by adippm82 » Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:49 pm

Spector wrote:Commando however was Elite at their worst.
For me Commando was a masterpiece compared to Ghosts & Goblins, that was definitely Elite at their worst, just about got everything wrong with that one.

I would say the C16 Commando game is not nearly as bad as the BBC Micro version, or even worse, the Electron one.

It had little in common with the other ports and was a world away from the arcade game, but at least it had some speed to it.

And yes, Scooby Doo is quite a decent little game, and was one of only a handful, that ran on the C16 only, not the Plus 4.

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