Manhunt 2 - the debate

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SirClive
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Post by SirClive » Sun Mar 23, 2008 9:47 am

Shin_Gouki wrote:The general population abhors child abuse and I can bet you anything you like if you put it to a democratic vote there's no way in hell it'd be allowed. Why? Because of common decency and common sense. Like I've said many times, there is only one type of person who will buy this game because normal people don't want to re-create the violent rape of an innocent child.
Why do you insist on singling this one crime out? Surely murder is just as abhorrent?
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Post by Shin_Gouki » Sun Mar 23, 2008 9:49 am

SirClive wrote:
Shin_Gouki wrote:The general population abhors child abuse and I can bet you anything you like if you put it to a democratic vote there's no way in hell it'd be allowed. Why? Because of common decency and common sense. Like I've said many times, there is only one type of person who will buy this game because normal people don't want to re-create the violent rape of an innocent child.
Why do you insist on singling this one crime out? Surely murder is just as abhorrent?
Because as far as I know we've been debating whether or not a game based on it should be banned.
Last edited by Shin_Gouki on Sun Mar 23, 2008 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by paranoid marvin » Sun Mar 23, 2008 9:56 am

SirClive wrote:
Shin_Gouki wrote:The general population abhors child abuse and I can bet you anything you like if you put it to a democratic vote there's no way in hell it'd be allowed. Why? Because of common decency and common sense. Like I've said many times, there is only one type of person who will buy this game because normal people don't want to re-create the violent rape of an innocent child.
Why do you insist on singling this one crime out? Surely murder is just as abhorrent?
As I've pointed out previously we now live in a society which accepts violence as an unavoidable part of life. We have become desensitised and far more tolerant than perhaps we should be

Serious crimes of a sexual nature however , never have - or ever will become- tolerated in any way shape or form

There's really no point discussing a subject however which will never receive a commercial release
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Post by Shin_Gouki » Sun Mar 23, 2008 9:59 am

Agreed, let's move on FFS :roll:
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Post by SirClive » Sun Mar 23, 2008 10:21 am

But I thought you wanted an open debate!

It was you who moved the dabte onto that subject anyway...
Shin_Gouki wrote:Reading through this thread I couldn't help but notice several people basically agreeing that a game involving child abuse shouldn't be censored.

That's disturbing.
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Post by paranoid marvin » Sun Mar 23, 2008 10:32 am

Ok , so if a rape simulation game was made available , with the most fantastic graphics , sound and playability , would anyne here feel comfortable playing it? I mean , it's only a game after all , and the women you're attacking aren't real
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Post by Vir_Lucis » Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:04 am

Uh...you guys have never been to Japan right? Otherwise you would see that there are literally HUNDREDS of games over there about paedophilia...HUNDREDS. As for rape...THOUSANDS. Guess what? They sell. And not only to people who commit those acts in real life, but to lots and lots of otherwise very normal people who for whatever reason associate their sexuality with such imagery. Even though they are psychologically predisposed to such things, they choose to find an outlet for that which is not harmful to another individual - who's to say that without that there wouldn't be many more people harmed?

Maybe we should look up the rates of child molestation in Japan as opposed to the USA for example? Might be a useful exercise because they have plenty of entertainment based on such things over there. Whilst we're at it, check out the statistics on rape and murder as well. And for the record, i would much much rather be molested then killed. Hands down, no question. i'm pretty sure almost everybody would say the same thing, life is precious even if you have to experience such pain...it's better than no life at all. Yet MURDER in games is somehow morally okay? But paedophilia is not? Sorry, but if you can say that your argument is already lost - it's all or nothing.

As for the blind faith thing...atheism requires just as much blind faith as religion. Militant atheism definitely does. So don't get high and mighty (pun intended :P) about faith because you have it in spades to say there is NO G-d and you are sure of that. Just listen to physicists talking about what happened before the big bang...guess what? It goes something like this:

"There was this creative force, a driving creative force that had within it the ability to manifest this point of singularity from whence all things in this universe emerged."

Physics isn't atheist. ;)
Last edited by Vir_Lucis on Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Vir_Lucis » Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:06 am

paranoid marvin wrote:Ok , so if a rape simulation game was made available , with the most fantastic graphics , sound and playability , would anyne here feel comfortable playing it? I mean , it's only a game after all , and the women you're attacking aren't real
Yes. Yes i would. You know what, there might be a few moments where i get a bit of a kick out of it too...can't say for sure, but who knows. There will also be times when it makes me feel very disturbed and worried, but that's part of the experience of playing it! More to the point, you have no right to morally condemn me for doing so - because it's a work of FICTION. FICTION. FICTION. It bears no relationship to my activities in the 'real world', and i am one of the nicest and most polite and respectful people that i know. Sorry, but you can't feel all superior about it because my choice of entertainment might be different to yours.

One more time....F-I-C-T-I-O-N. The Marquis De Sade was one of the greatest writers of literature in Western history, his works faced the same condemnation because 'the majority of people find that stuff sick'...what's happened now? He is recognised as one of the true literary geniuses, and if he hadn't been chucked in jail we would have hundreds more of his works that were destroyed because of it.

A game about rape could be the most moving, enlightening, and challenging emotional experience you ever go through if done right. i for one would welcome such an experience...because i'm sincerely hoping i never have to go through such things in 'real life'!
Last edited by Vir_Lucis on Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:20 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by SirClive » Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:19 am

paranoid marvin wrote:Ok , so if a rape simulation game was made available , with the most fantastic graphics , sound and playability , would anyne here feel comfortable playing it? I mean , it's only a game after all , and the women you're attacking aren't real
Playing it? Depends on the mechanics I suppose. If you said would you feel comfortable playing a game that gives you bonuses for killing random people a while ago I may have said no. But then I look at all the games that I do enjoy that involve that exact thing and I would be a hypocrite to claim I was bothered by it. Quite to the contrary, I actually like to do it.

Whether I would play it or not is irrelevant to the question 'should it be banned'.
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Post by Vir_Lucis » Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:23 am

In my mind we need more games about these kinds of things that are actually well made and thoughtful about the subject matter, in order to bring it out of the 'just for sick kicks' arena and into the 'moral literature' arena...just because you feel disturbed playing something doesn't mean it can't take you on an emotional journey that is quite impacting and meaningful.

Who knows, such a game would probably bring a lot more people to understand the horror of rape (if done correctly). There would be much more sympathy for victims, and more understanding of the psychological processes that leads to the act being committed (as much as you hate the act, the rapist is still actually human. Sorry but they are, they're not any less human than you or i...no matter how much we disagree with their behaviour).

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Post by paranoid marvin » Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:27 am

SirClive wrote:
paranoid marvin wrote:Ok , so if a rape simulation game was made available , with the most fantastic graphics , sound and playability , would anyne here feel comfortable playing it? I mean , it's only a game after all , and the women you're attacking aren't real
Playing it? Depends on the mechanics I suppose. If you said would you feel comfortable playing a game that gives you bonuses for killing random people a while ago I may have said no. But then I look at all the games that I do enjoy that involve that exact thing and I would be a hypocrite to claim I was bothered by it. Quite to the contrary, I actually like to do it.

Whether I would play it or not is irrelevant to the question 'should it be banned'.
Obviously it WOULD be banned (in the UK at least). The question is , why?
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Post by Vir_Lucis » Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:30 am

Why? Because we live in a society that feels it in our best interests to police our forms of entertainment...plain and simple.

Why? Because they think that such things INCREASE the level of the actual crimes...that's WHY.

Crime statistics and academic studies on entertainment will tell you otherwise...but they're just studies right? Nothing compared to the power of moral outrage.

i'm quite a spiritual and in some areas religious person...but i hate moral outrage. It's hypocritical and in most instances completely ignorant of the facts as we know them.

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Post by paranoid marvin » Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:38 am

Vir_Lucis wrote:Why? Because we live in a society that feels it in our best interests to police our forms of entertainment...plain and simple.

Why? Because they think that such things INCREASE the level of the actual crimes...that's WHY.

Crime statistics and academic studies on entertainment will tell you otherwise...but they're just studies right? Nothing compared to the power of moral outrage.

i'm quite a spiritual and in some areas religious person...but i hate moral outrage. It's hypocritical and in most instances completely ignorant of the facts as we know them.
No , it's not. If that were the case then any game featuring criminal activity would be banned

Perhaps it would be banned for beng 'in poor taste'? Well , art & literature can get away with it , but gaming can't. You want to know whay ? Because a&l is for people who can tell the difference between reality and fantasy and gamers can't ; until such attitudes are changed (if ever) our hobby will be scrutinised by the powers that be
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Post by Vir_Lucis » Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:50 am

If the politicians had their way that would be the case...it's just that the sales drive says otherwise - profit always wins. But if the problem is the way the industry is seen then how can we change those attitudes without the ability to develop such possibly artistic works?

It's a real catch 22 isn't it...we will continue to be seen as an area of entertainment for kids which makes more kids games being made, which reinforces the previous opinion. *sigh*

Honestly i think the issue is that our options for retail purchase of games in the UK in particular are SO limited. Per my example earlier about Japan - you don't see those games being sold in HMV (well, they might have one or two actually!)...they have thousands of independent gaming shops that sell whatever the people will buy. Just to get INTO these shops you have to be over age. We need more outlets for our games and then you will see the distinction - the real issue i feel is that Manhunt would have to sit next to Mario & Sonic at the Olympics on a shelf...how often do you see the Arthouse section of HMV next to the Children's cartoons?

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Post by Dudley » Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:02 pm

Shin_Gouki wrote:
Dudley wrote:
Shin_Gouki wrote:My point is that only one type of person would buy said game. The rest of us would find it appalling and boycott it anyway. Therefore, only paedos would flock to buy it. Why give them the chance? It's sickening.
So presumably you've just called everyone who buys GTA a murderer, think everyone who buys Need for Speed should be banned from the road and anyone who buys Mario should never be allowed to keep a tortoise.

And god knows what you feel about Viva Pinata.
No, I haven't done that at all. This is getting ridiculous - firstly you call me a fascist and now make wild assumptions about my opinions. You assume I want to enforce my views upon everyone, which I clearly don't, but for censored's sake, it child molestation! Is nothing sacred? Ordinary people don't advocate this filth - we all know that!

I don't have a problem with any of the games you've mentioned, or any other game on the market for that matter. I do have a problem with child molesters, and don't think that they should be encouraged with any unsavoury material, regardless of whether it's a picture, a movie or a game. You wouldn't advocate print, film or still images of said child abuse, so don't you think it's a little hypocritical to condone a game involving this?
And that's my POINT!

GAMES.
AREN'T.
REAL.

There's no comparison at all between a child molestation game (number of children harmed : 0) and a real image, just as there's no comparison between GTA (harmed :0) and actual murder.

So no I don't think it's hypocritical at all. I do think it's a little hypocritical to condone games featuring every other crime under the sun but deciding one random crime is suddenly sacred.

Either games cause crime, in which case you have no arguement against banning any game depicting crime, or they don't at which point, if they're not real, which they're not, you can't randomly choose one illegal act you're apparently not allowed to depict.

There's no "wild asumptions" at all. You're being wildly inconsistent and have offered no reason why apart from "this is my pet crime therefore it's evil but every other crime is ok". I'm wondering if we're touching some raw nerve from your own past here, I really hope not.

You said anyone who would buy a game involving molestation was a paedo. Since according to you, that doesn't make everyone who buys GTA a murderer please explain what the difference is.

(Incidentally a never called you a fascist, I said your proposals were)
As for the blind faith thing...atheism requires just as much blind faith as religion. Militant atheism definitely does.
This is a different topic, please start a thread, but that post is 100% pure utter, undiluted bollocks.

And that's a shame because this one

Why? Because we live in a society that feels it in our best interests to police our forms of entertainment...plain and simple.

Why? Because they think that such things INCREASE the level of the actual crimes...that's WHY.

Crime statistics and academic studies on entertainment will tell you otherwise...but they're just studies right? Nothing compared to the power of moral outrage.

i'm quite a spiritual and in some areas religious person...but i hate moral outrage. It's hypocritical and in most instances completely ignorant of the facts as we know them.
Is really good.

Do they increase crime? If so I have no defence for GTA or Need for Speed, let alone Mahunt or EA Sports presents Gary Glitter's Kiddie Rape-a-thon 2009.

If they do, leave any entertainment (and read this next bit) created using no ilegal means (obvious FMV of rape is bad) alone for adults to do what they want in private harming no-one.
We need more outlets for our games and then you will see the distinction - the real issue i feel is that Manhunt would have to sit next to Mario & Sonic at the Olympics on a shelf...how often do you see the Arthouse section of HMV next to the Children's cartoons?
Surely, given your examples, a better example rather than arthouse would be the DVDs of Die Hard and Rambo.

And I certainly saw Rambo right next to Ratatouille in Wathamstow HMV on Saturday.
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