Manhunt 2 - the debate

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Dudley
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Post by Dudley » Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:19 pm

Amen, and I take that too. I have no special objections to Manhunt 2's content other than the fact it's genuinely the worst game I played last year and has graphics and controls that would embarass a first gen PSX title.

But if you allow Manhunt 2 to be censored I can see absolutely no reason to allow GTA4 through at all.
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Post by Shin_Gouki » Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:50 pm

Dudley wrote:
Spot on, I think kiddie-fiddlers are the scum of the Earth, and IMO child molestation is infinitely worse than murder, mostly due to the fact that the victim suffers for the rest of their life
So in short you want games banned purely on your personal view of the severity of content rather than democratically arrived at laws? There's a word for wanting to impose your personal beliefs on a population, it's not pretty.
Most people realise that there's a line which shouldn't be crossed for obvious reasons. Do you really think that if a vote was taken the populous would agree that kiddie-fiddler games should be allowed?

Would you buy a game simulating this sick activity?

Would you associate with anyone who did?

I'm assuming the vast majority of sane people in this world would answer no to both of the above, and those who'd answer yes are a concern to society. So why should those sickos be encouraged?

Allowing these types of games to pass through the censor would be akin to legalising kiddie-porn. I'm all for freedom of choice, but come on, this is really f-ed up.
It's a good thing we'd have you in charge and not the editor of the Daily Mail then isn't it.
Not sure what you mean here... :?
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Post by Antiriad2097 » Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:52 pm

I have no idea why.

I was brought up wth religion yet now find it ridiculous. I don't want to get into an argument, but I have no belief in gods or afterlifes or any of the popular 'enitity' things.

I was a victim of 'kiddy fiddling' and have certain views on that also. I don't think its pre-determined, or unavoidable, but equally I think it is, for me at least, something that you can be equally ashamed about but also need not rule your life. Its not something I wish to discuss, but its a done deal, no amount of talk will change what happened. Banning games certainly won't change it, nor will it stop it in any case I can begin to imagine.

Of the two, I find blind faith more disturbing. Certainly more damaging. On a daily basis I see people given false hope by religion, yet the Paedo's are relatively scarce. While I have no sympathy for them, we have far worse ills in this world. Making things worse for the majority doesn't help. Cutting GTA 4 or Manhunt 2 or anythinhg else barely registers. They're games ffs. They are not reality. Protect your children, don't taint them ready for grooming...
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Post by SirClive » Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:42 am

Shin_Gouki wrote:I'm assuming the vast majority of sane people in this world would answer no to both of the above, and those who'd answer yes are a concern to society. So why should those sickos be encouraged?

Allowing these types of games to pass through the censor would be akin to legalising kiddie-porn. I'm all for freedom of choice, but come on, this is really f-ed up.
So not making something illegal is supporting or encouraging it? So you ARE saying that murder in games should be banned, and theft and every other crime?

I am sure no-one supports child abuse on here, but that really isn't the point of free speech or freedom of expression.

I would also say that giving it a cheeky little name like 'kiddy fiddling' is a very damaging thing and is far more legitimising than banning Manhunt would be.
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Post by Shin_Gouki » Sun Mar 23, 2008 4:27 am

SirClive wrote:So not making something illegal is supporting or encouraging it? So you ARE saying that murder in games should be banned, and theft and every other crime?
I did not once say or imply this. I'm only opposed to child molestation, like most of the world's population. It's not simply a case of "not making something illegal is supporting or encouraging it," c'mon this is a really sick thing we're talking about here. Why would you want this sh!t in society?
SirClive wrote:I am sure no-one supports child abuse on here, but that really isn't the point of free speech or freedom of expression.
Child molesters are sick f*cks. Fact. The crimes they commit are both morally reprehensible and unnatural. Fact.

There is a reason child pornography is illegal. You argue that a game simulating this should be allowed, but I bet you wouldn't be caught dead protesting against age of consent laws or child porn restrictions.

Why would anyone on this Earth sit idly by and allow such a game to be made, even if they support freedom of expression? Its political correctness gone wrong.
SirClive wrote:I would also say that giving it a cheeky little name like 'kiddy fiddling' is a very damaging thing and is far more legitimising than banning Manhunt would be.
Fine I said kiddie-fiddling, but whatever you call it, it's the same thing. You know that, I know that, so regardless of what the game was called we would all still know the general premise of it.

Honestly, why the hell do you care if such a game was banned? Seems to me that it's a case of freedom of expression getting in the way of moral decency.
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Post by Dudley » Sun Mar 23, 2008 4:45 am

Shin_Gouki wrote:
Dudley wrote:
Spot on, I think kiddie-fiddlers are the scum of the Earth, and IMO child molestation is infinitely worse than murder, mostly due to the fact that the victim suffers for the rest of their life
So in short you want games banned purely on your personal view of the severity of content rather than democratically arrived at laws? There's a word for wanting to impose your personal beliefs on a population, it's not pretty.
Most people realise that there's a line which shouldn't be crossed for obvious reasons. Do you really think that if a vote was taken the populous would agree that kiddie-fiddler games should be allowed?

Would you buy a game simulating this sick activity?

Would you associate with anyone who did?

I'm assuming the vast majority of sane people in this world would answer no to both of the above, and those who'd answer yes are a concern to society. So why should those sickos be encouraged?

Allowing these types of games to pass through the censor would be akin to legalising kiddie-porn. I'm all for freedom of choice, but come on, this is really f-ed up.
It's a good thing we'd have you in charge and not the editor of the Daily Mail then isn't it.
Not sure what you mean here... :?
The editor of the Daily Mail has the exact same views as you, just with a different arbitary line.

"This game lets you KILL PEOPLE! I'm all for freedom of choice, but come on, this is really f-ed up".

You're being just as much of a facist as they are. You just want to draw the "It's wrong because I say so" line in a very slightly different location.

No I wouldn't buy said game, I would absolutely defend the right of someone to do so, since I like my games based on different illegal activity. If you didn't allow said game you have absolutely no defence when they come for Need for Speed and even less for GTA which allows the committing of multiple crimes all carrying far harsher legal penalties.

You're still not justifying why that illegal activity is not fine but murder is just A-OK. If asked the direct question I'm sure people might not vote for it. Do you think they would vote for "Murder simulators" if the question was presented in that way either?
There is a reason child pornography is illegal. You argue that a game simulating this should be allowed, but I bet you wouldn't be caught dead protesting against age of consent laws or child porn restrictions.
No, because games aren't real life.

There's a reason murder is illegal. You're still not having a problem with murder games but I bet you wouldn't be caught dead protesting against murder laws...
Why would anyone on this Earth sit idly by and allow such a game to be made, even if they support freedom of expression? Its political correctness gone wrong.
And again, entirely true of murder if you draw your abritary reactionary censorship line in a slightly different location.
Honestly, why the hell do you care if such a game was banned? Seems to me that it's a case of freedom of expression getting in the way of moral decency.
And again, this could apply to any game involving simulation of crime too.
Allowing these types of games to pass through the censor would be akin to legalising kiddie-porn.
Of course it sodding well isn't any more than allowing GTA to pass is legalising murder, allowing Need for Speed to pass is legalising all speeding and allowing Mario to pass is legalising jumping up and down on top of tortoises.

Do games cause crime? If yes you can't defend any game depicting it. If no then you can't ban a game created by legal means just because it happens to depict your pet crime of hate.
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Post by Shin_Gouki » Sun Mar 23, 2008 4:51 am

Call it fascism all you like, you and I both know that a game about child abuse is in the worst taste imaginable.

I sincerely doubt that anyone here would actually buy such a game. At least I hope they wouldn't.
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Post by The Master » Sun Mar 23, 2008 5:00 am

That's the thing though. The debate's largely irrelevant, since even if anyone made such a game and it was freely available, very very few people would actually buy or play it.

I mean, I'm all for a bit of murderous mayhem in my gaming, but even then I prefer it to be morally unambiguous - I like it when, for example, the game won't actually let you shoot at the good guys.

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Post by Dudley » Sun Mar 23, 2008 5:31 am

Shin_Gouki wrote:Call it fascism all you like, you and I both know that a game about child abuse is in the worst taste imaginable.

I sincerely doubt that anyone here would actually buy such a game. At least I hope they wouldn't.
So? Does that mean our tastes should ban everyone else?

If so, does the Daily Mail get to ban GTA and Need for speed? Why not? Why does your taste rule and theirs doesn't?

Equally if games don't cause crime what is your arguement for banning that and not GTA? not NFS? not, indeed, Mario? Or are we really just talking about the answer being "Your emotions". If so, at least admit it so I can stop attempting rational debate. At least it would be A reason, if not a good one.

But presumably given the lack of any response you have at least accepted said game is nothing to do with legalsiing any harm to kids whatsoever, which is at least progress.
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Post by SirClive » Sun Mar 23, 2008 6:43 am

Shin_Gouki wrote:Call it fascism all you like, you and I both know that a game about child abuse is in the worst taste imaginable.

I sincerely doubt that anyone here would actually buy such a game. At least I hope they wouldn't.
And that is exactly the point. Freedom to create a game doesn't mean that game would be made. The market would ensure that games like that didn't flourish.
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Post by Shin_Gouki » Sun Mar 23, 2008 6:59 am

My point is that only one type of person would buy said game. The rest of us would find it appalling and boycott it anyway. Therefore, only paedos would flock to buy it. Why give them the chance? It's sickening.
SirClive wrote:The market would ensure that games like that didn't flourish.
OK, so what's the big issue if it gets banned before that can happen? Why are people who don't have an interest in that kind of disgusting activity getting their knickers in a twist - it wouldn't affect you one iota.
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Post by SirClive » Sun Mar 23, 2008 7:38 am

Because if you ban that you HAVE TO ban any other illegal activity in games. Child abuse is just one sickening crime in a world riddled with sick people. You have an opinion that it is worse than any other crime on the planet, others will see murder as the most heinous etc. Unless you are going to dictatorially decide which are acceptable crimes and which aren't (which I don't think it is morally possible to do) then I don't see how you can defend the argument.

Of course just being devil's advocate for a moment, we haven't touched on the possible positive benefits of such a game satiating the needs of a paedophile without them having to actually harm a child.
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Post by Dudley » Sun Mar 23, 2008 8:56 am

Shin_Gouki wrote:My point is that only one type of person would buy said game. The rest of us would find it appalling and boycott it anyway. Therefore, only paedos would flock to buy it. Why give them the chance? It's sickening.
So presumably you've just called everyone who buys GTA a murderer, think everyone who buys Need for Speed should be banned from the road and anyone who buys Mario should never be allowed to keep a tortoise.

And god knows what you feel about Viva Pinata.
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Post by paranoid marvin » Sun Mar 23, 2008 8:58 am

Dudley wrote:
Shin_Gouki wrote:My point is that only one type of person would buy said game. The rest of us would find it appalling and boycott it anyway. Therefore, only paedos would flock to buy it. Why give them the chance? It's sickening.
So presumably you've just called everyone who buys GTA a murderer and think everyone who buys Need for Speed should be banned from the road and anyone who buys Mario should never be allowed to keep a tortoise.
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Post by Shin_Gouki » Sun Mar 23, 2008 9:20 am

Dudley wrote:
Shin_Gouki wrote:My point is that only one type of person would buy said game. The rest of us would find it appalling and boycott it anyway. Therefore, only paedos would flock to buy it. Why give them the chance? It's sickening.
So presumably you've just called everyone who buys GTA a murderer, think everyone who buys Need for Speed should be banned from the road and anyone who buys Mario should never be allowed to keep a tortoise.

And god knows what you feel about Viva Pinata.
No, I haven't done that at all. This is getting ridiculous - firstly you call me a fascist and now make wild assumptions about my opinions. You assume I want to enforce my views upon everyone, which I clearly don't, but for censored's sake, it child molestation! Is nothing sacred? Ordinary people don't advocate this filth - we all know that!

I don't have a problem with any of the games you've mentioned, or any other game on the market for that matter. I do have a problem with child molesters, and don't think that they should be encouraged with any unsavoury material, regardless of whether it's a picture, a movie or a game. You wouldn't advocate print, film or still images of said child abuse, so don't you think it's a little hypocritical to condone a game involving this?
SirClive wrote:Because if you ban that you HAVE TO ban any other illegal activity in games. Child abuse is just one sickening crime in a world riddled with sick people. You have an opinion that it is worse than any other crime on the planet, others will see murder as the most heinous etc. Unless you are going to dictatorially decide which are acceptable crimes and which aren't (which I don't think it is morally possible to do) then I don't see how you can defend the argument.
It's not a case of me dictating anything. The general population abhors child abuse and I can bet you anything you like if you put it to a democratic vote there's no way in hell it'd be allowed. Why? Because of common decency and common sense. Like I've said many times, there is only one type of person who will buy this game because normal people don't want to re-create the violent rape of an innocent child.
Last edited by Shin_Gouki on Sun Mar 23, 2008 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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