Manhunt 2 - the debate

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killbot
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Post by killbot » Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:21 pm

SirClive wrote:If I had a family member die after being hit by a speeding car should I expect every need for speed game to be banned?
You may be right and you may be wrong but you would certainly have the right to feel that way. But most racing games until recently took place on racetracks or closed roads so it's really only a question that's become relevant in the wake of the current glut of post-The Fast And The Furious illegal street racing sims.
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Vir_Lucis
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Post by Vir_Lucis » Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:25 pm

Um...nice work mixing up the post quotes there Garry ;) good old creative editing in its truest form.

If this issue is about freedom of speech and choice, then why the debate? Either you have the right to say and play whatever you want, or you don't...it's a pretty black and white area. The moment you censor anything that freedom is limited and by definition not true freedom. Fair enough if you stop saying we have that freedom...fair enough.

i for one want such freedom though to play any game i want - even if it includes things in it that are considered heinous by most of society. The only thing i would concede on is that the game should not be allowed to advertise in public areas too forcefully - that is to say they should not be allowed to promote the game through violent/objectionable imagery that anybody can see by walking into a mall or opening a magazine. BUT, this should never stop the game from being sold outright.

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Post by GarryG » Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:29 pm

:roll:
Very last post on this subject...

I was one of the people arguing against changes in the law that would allow censorship and curtail freedom of choice
:roll:
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Vir_Lucis
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Post by Vir_Lucis » Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:40 pm

i know that, which is why i was a bit shocked by you being so against my words about thoughtcrime...it was just a bit odd that's all. i didn't expect anybody to respond to them really, and then you jump on the attack bandwagon...

Anyway - on with the show!

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Post by paranoid marvin » Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:01 pm

There are freedoms , but there are also limits

Would anyone agree it is right to allow someone the freedom to falsely shout "Fire !" in a packed theatre and cause a stampede?

Would anyone agree it is right to allow someone the freedom to drive their car at 100 mph in a built up area?

Until recent years , software houses have goverened themselves over the content included in their software . However , companies like Rockstar have started to push the boundaries of what is 'acceptable' to the public with a number of more 'extreme' titles which have found their way into the spotlight.

Such titles which craved general media exposure have had their wish granted , and largely led to more successful sales figures. However , they have dragged into the limelight other more inncocent , mainstream games which would otherwise have been ignored by the tabloids.

Our hobby is being scrutinised more now than it ever has in the past , and there appear to be more influential people crying 'ban this sick filth!' than there are prepared to stand up to defend the games industry.

We live in a more violent world , but also one in which violence is accepted as an unavoidable part of our lives.

Is this because of the film industry?
Is it because of television programmes?
Perhaps it's the unremitting amount of violent actions seen in the news?
How about the music industry?
Could it be video games which are to blame?

Or a combination , or none of the above?

Who knows , but I DO know that one or two more Postals or Manhunts may be enough to see a more severe form of censorship imposed than has ever been seen in the past - perhaps one from which we may never recover
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Post by SirClive » Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:35 pm

Or perhaps the debate that games like those you mention cause will move us away from the ridiculous banning of a game that if a movie, would not have cause the slightest eyebrow raise in the BBFC.
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Post by paranoid marvin » Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:49 pm

SirClive wrote:Or perhaps the debate that games like those you mention cause will move us away from the ridiculous banning of a game that if a movie, would not have cause the slightest eyebrow raise in the BBFC.
We'll never see the banning of 'video nasties' again , that ridiculous level of censorship for the film industry will never again be repeated.

However , the perception of video games as a past-time primarily for children is unlikely to dispelled any time soon , and the likelihood of gaming getting it's own version of the video nasty cull of the 80s is only too apparent

I have also compared the censorship of games to films in the past , but let's face it , we really shouldn't. It's like comparing to entirely things , and we do gaming a disservice by allying it with such a passive form of entertainment

Games designers ask us personally to direct our on-screen avatar to carry out certain actions - perhaps of more concern are those that give us a choice to refuse, but reward those who carry out the required tasks , however distasteful they may be - whereas movies simply require us to passively watch whilst others make the decsions , allowing us to freely choose how we feel about their actions
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Post by SirClive » Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:54 pm

I have also compared the censorship of games to films in the past , but let's face it , we really shouldn't. It's like comparing to entirely things , and we do gaming a disservice by allying it with such a passive form of entertainment
I disagree. How many boys come out of a kung fu film copying the moves and acting all Bruce Lee? A lot more than finish a game of Mortal Kombat and do the same.
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Post by paranoid marvin » Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:04 pm

SirClive wrote:
I have also compared the censorship of games to films in the past , but let's face it , we really shouldn't. It's like comparing to entirely things , and we do gaming a disservice by allying it with such a passive form of entertainment
I disagree. How many boys come out of a kung fu film copying the moves and acting all Bruce Lee? A lot more than finish a game of Mortal Kombat and do the same.
exactly! They're 2 entirely different mediums , one passive , one active - and shouldn't be compared. In fact probably the most similar media comparison are the Ian Livingstone dice books of the 80s
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Post by Antiriad2097 » Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:04 pm

paranoid marvin wrote:However , the perception of video games as a past-time primarily for children is unlikely to dispelled any time soon , and the likelihood of gaming getting it's own version of the video nasty cull of the 80s is only too apparent
I don't think that holds up. The general public may consider games to be child's play, but we who grew up with games are now in our 30's and 40's. Its us who are moving into positions of power, who will be influencing government, laws, and media coverage. We may not be a majority, but there are enough of us around, and enough ex-gamers who understand the concepts, that this will blow over in time. What we need is the stopgap solution to appear to be reacting to what the public wants while protecting our own interests. Hence my views on banning illicit supply of innapropriate games for all children - direct the media to the bad parents, not the material that wasn't intended for them. Its a short term solution to a period of social transition.
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Post by paranoid marvin » Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:08 pm

Antiriad2097 wrote:
paranoid marvin wrote:However , the perception of video games as a past-time primarily for children is unlikely to dispelled any time soon , and the likelihood of gaming getting it's own version of the video nasty cull of the 80s is only too apparent
I don't think that holds up. The general public may consider games to be child's play, but we who grew up with games are now in our 30's and 40's. Its us who are moving into positions of power, who will be influencing government, laws, and media coverage. We may not be a majority, but there are enough of us around, and enough ex-gamers who understand the concepts, that this will blow over in time. What we need is the stopgap solution to appear to be reacting to what the public wants while protecting our own interests. Hence my views on banning illicit supply of innapropriate games for all children - direct the media to the bad parents, not the material that wasn't intended for them. Its a short term solution to a period of social transition.
but of course the easiest way is to ban the games in the first place - blaming gaming for all the nation's ills is a popular idea , hence the tabloid's stance on violent games = violent kids
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Post by Antiriad2097 » Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:13 pm

Its not going to happen though, is it? A multi million industry isn't just going to walk away. To do so would just open a floodgate of grey imports and bootlegs, driving things underground and into an even worse position.
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Post by mohicankid » Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:37 pm

I SAY BAN CHILDREN AND LEAVE MY GAMES ALONE!

the problem is we live in a society where people do not take responsibility
"i did it 'cos i saw it on a video game"
"they did it on jack ass"
maralin manson made me do it"

the truth is parents need to take responsibility for what their children are watching and or doing
i was in game (yes i know) today and a child tried to purchase two games one a 15 and one an 18 instead of telling the child to go away the counter monkey asked the child to get his dad to pay explaining that they were not allowed to physically serve any one under age...so the dad paid for it instead! i made the back handed compliment of "thats responsible parenting" and he told me to f**k off!
now if that child mimicks the game who will get the blame?
the parent?
the store?
or the publisher?
Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water...

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Vir_Lucis
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Post by Vir_Lucis » Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:23 pm

Ok, as i have a younger brother who is now turning 14 and is 12 years my junior, so i've seen a bit of this 'irresponsible parenting' as people are calling it....

Point is - it isn't whether or not they let their kids play these games. It is how these kids are raised to relate to what they are doing on screen and how they react to pieces of fiction as compared to real life.

For example, my brother from about the age of 11 was playing GTA (my copy of it...so blame me :P)...so were ALL of his friends, bar none. Now i actually spoke to these guys about the game once, after reading an article about just this kind of sentiment.

Guess what their response was? Please...just guess.

Their response was - "This is a game, you'd have to be an absolute idiot to do it in real life"

Give the kids some credit. Seriously, give them some credit. i've never met any child playing these games who didn't realise it was 'make-believe'.

Now, not saying we shouldn't hold back the more violent things like Manhunt as opposed to cartoon violence of GTA - we should. BUT, if they get their hands on it because the parents have thought about it and made up their mind then so be it. It's up to the parents, and it DOESN'T make them irresponsible in the slightest - that's a judgment call and is dependent on the individual...

Just for the record, my brother who has played basically every violent game ever made for the past 5 years is the most well adjusted and least violent kid i've ever met...honest to G-d. 100% truth.

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Post by C=Style » Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:28 pm

Yeah in an ideal World parents should take responsibility for their kids, but the harsh reality is that there's a lot of parent who don't really give much of a sh1t what their kids play or watch. I think this is just a protective measure more than outright censorship to ensure that even if youngsters do get hold of this game (which they will) it won't be quite such a psychopathic experience.

However on a personal note, I still don't think a game like this has much place in a civilized society. IMHO plus the game sucks big hairy arses..

If gaming was considered a fully "adult" form of entertainment I don't think this censorship would have gone ahead.

Blame the crummy parents, not the BBFC.
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