Using savestates while playing emulators

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pocketmego
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Post by pocketmego » Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:26 pm

Savestates are also useful for old games that used passwords instead of save memory. I'd want to kill myself if I had to go back to writing down passwords for Metroid, Megaman, and Simon's Quest...etc.

-Ray
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Opa-Opa
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Post by Opa-Opa » Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:58 pm

pocketmego wrote:Savestates are also useful for old games that used passwords instead of save memory. I'd want to kill myself if I had to go back to writing down passwords for Metroid, Megaman, and Simon's Quest...etc.

-Ray
Then your not playing them properly...
Half the fun is scrambling round trying to find a pen that works because you just spent 2 hours on one level and NEED to write down that code..

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Sureshot
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Post by Sureshot » Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:37 pm

Sabreman wrote:Used honestly, the save state to me is simply the equivalent of pausing the game for a long period.
I second this. Mostly I will only use savestates at points in the game where you can actually save, as an extra backup, but using it as long pause is also a viable use in my opinion. Using it as a point of retry in games where it isn't intended is where it could be classed as 'cheating'.

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pocketmego
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Post by pocketmego » Sat Jul 28, 2007 1:42 am

Opa-Opa wrote:
pocketmego wrote:Savestates are also useful for old games that used passwords instead of save memory. I'd want to kill myself if I had to go back to writing down passwords for Metroid, Megaman, and Simon's Quest...etc.

-Ray
Then your not playing them properly...
Half the fun is scrambling round trying to find a pen that works because you just spent 2 hours on one level and NEED to write down that code..
That's a bit like saying half the fun of eating glass is the multiple oral stitches you get when you are done.

:lol:

Now, I have been giving this some further thought and something occurred to me. I think the question on whether or not savestates are cheating are fundamentally based on what reasons you are playing the game.

If you are playing to beat the game, then yes, I agree.

However, not everyone plays for this reason.

I enjoy the process of playing for the journey, not the destination. The same reason I never use warp zones in Super Mario Brothers or other games. I like playing the game and don't want to bring the experience to an ending so quickly. I enjoy the games construction, the artistry that goes into it.

So, if I'm just using the savestates to enhance the experience to lengthen the play vs trying to beat the game in an easy manner, then I don't see this as cheating. How could it be?

-Ray
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The Last Ginja
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Post by The Last Ginja » Sat Jul 28, 2007 3:39 am

Opa-Opa wrote:
pocketmego wrote:Savestates are also useful for old games that used passwords instead of save memory. I'd want to kill myself if I had to go back to writing down passwords for Metroid, Megaman, and Simon's Quest...etc.

-Ray
Then your not playing them properly...
Half the fun is scrambling round trying to find a pen that works because you just spent 2 hours on one level and NEED to write down that code..
No that's just you being stuck in the past! :wink:

Seriously if you use the savestate in a "censored I've got other stuff to do kind of way" then that's fine imo. You're not cheating it's just a fact of life as an adult.

If you use them just before a hard part of a game and then reload ad infinitum until you beat it. Yes, it's cheating(technically),but if it means that you see parts of games that you've never seen before and you're happy with it thats fine. You're only cheating the game.

Cheating/Glitching in MP games to your advantage, well that's a whole other thread of fish.

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Post by CraigGrannell » Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:12 am

Opa-Opa wrote:Except of course that don't count as cheating.. What your doing is informing us of the whole game, many a company would send out games with level select codes for review use.
Hmm. Good point, there. Still, even with save states and other cheats, some games take a while—when I did the Head Over Heels making-of, it still took some time to get to the end.
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paranoid marvin
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Post by paranoid marvin » Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:26 am

I don't consider saving in 8 bit games as cheating - many of these required ridiculously long playing times in order to complete the game in one sitting - if saving had been available then , they would have used it
Also , many games ramped-up to the difficulty level to almost impossible levels just to hide the fact that the game was actually rather short -saving in these circumstances help to level the playing field

By the time we come to 16 bit gaming , those games which require a saving option have them - and those that don't , don't . Therefore saving in these games is against the programmers original intentions and should be discouraged
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Post by Opa-Opa » Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:41 am

paranoid marvin wrote:
By the time we come to 16 bit gaming , those games which require a saving option have them - and those that don't , don't . Therefore saving in these games is against the programmers original intentions and should be discouraged
Surely thats the same for all games, if the programer had put a save system in then it's fine to use, if not it is cheating....
Lots of 8-bit games had passwords etc if the programer felt it needed it.

A marathon is 26 miles long, you can't just decide to do half one week and then half the other because it takes ages to do in one go, it's ment to be done in one long sitting and therefore breaking it up is cheating. The same applies to video games, just because it takes a long time to finish in one go don't mean it's ok to cheat and do it in more than one sitting....

If you used an outside advantage to finish the game, your a cheat.
As I said before, theres nothing wrong with it, your only cheating yourself, but don't lie to yourself as well and belive you have finished it, because you haven't.....

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Post by StickHead » Sun Jul 29, 2007 9:31 am

Sureshot wrote:
Sabreman wrote:Used honestly, the save state to me is simply the equivalent of pausing the game for a long period.
I second this. Mostly I will only use savestates at points in the game where you can actually save, as an extra backup, but using it as long pause is also a viable use in my opinion. Using it as a point of retry in games where it isn't intended is where it could be classed as 'cheating'.
Interesting arguement this. I personally agree with Sabreman and Sureshot, using the savestate as an extended pause is legit, and this is how I use them. I am an adult and have other commitments.

But Opa-Opa makes a good point regarding finishing games. To truly finish a game, you should finish it exactly as the programmer/s intended. Using Save-state to take a break and come back could be regarded as an unfair advantage over someone who completes the game in one sitting.

Opa-Opa, it would be interesting to hear whether you extend this idea further. Is a game only completed when done so with the appropriate hardware? (ie. not emulated) Extreme example: original game-boy games are much easier when emulated on big crystal clear monitors.

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paranoid marvin
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Post by paranoid marvin » Sun Jul 29, 2007 9:38 am

Opa-Opa wrote:
paranoid marvin wrote:
By the time we come to 16 bit gaming , those games which require a saving option have them - and those that don't , don't . Therefore saving in these games is against the programmers original intentions and should be discouraged
Surely thats the same for all games, if the programer had put a save system in then it's fine to use, if not it is cheating....
Lots of 8-bit games had passwords etc if the programer felt it needed it.

A marathon is 26 miles long, you can't just decide to do half one week and then half the other because it takes ages to do in one go, it's ment to be done in one long sitting and therefore breaking it up is cheating. The same applies to video games, just because it takes a long time to finish in one go don't mean it's ok to cheat and do it in more than one sitting....

If you used an outside advantage to finish the game, your a cheat.
As I said before, theres nothing wrong with it, your only cheating yourself, but don't lie to yourself as well and belive you have finished it, because you haven't.....
so using a quick-save or save-game option in a game is legit if the programmer put one in , but is cheating if he/she didn't?
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Post by Opa-Opa » Sun Jul 29, 2007 9:47 am

paranoid marvin wrote:
so using a quick-save or save-game option in a game is legit if the programmer put one in , but is cheating if he/she didn't?
Yeah thats what I think...
I don't understand how people can't see this...? Maybe I'm just a misrable old sod but to really finish the game you must complete it as intended, if the programer put a save state or password into the original code then it is part of the game, if not it is an outside advantage used to to make the players life easier..

As for the for finishing a game in a Emu like the GB example used above, thats a tough one. Of course you can still play the GB games on a big screen without the use of an emulator via offical products such as the NGC Gameboy Player or SNES Super Gameboy which gives you the larger, clearer screen but is still the same game as the programers intended....

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Post by oswald » Sun Jul 29, 2007 11:04 am

I am an adult, and I am worried if I others think that savestates are cheating.


seriously, why do you care about it ?there's no one watching you and shoots you if you cheat or not. its up to you how do you want to have fun with a game!

there were trainers back then already, and on the c64 you could kind of savestate games with the action replay cartridge aswell.

someone said he had more patience as child, I think that is not true, simply as a child he enjoyed the game much more. so much more that he could finish it in one sitting without getting frustrated.

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Post by Opa-Opa » Sun Jul 29, 2007 1:42 pm

oswald wrote:I am an adult
Are you sure about this and can you offer anything to back that statement up..? :)
oswald wrote: seriously, why do you care about it ?there's no one watching you and shoots you if you cheat or not. its up to you how do you want to have fun with a game!
Yup... and if you want to cheat because you can't play the games how they were intended then not only are you rubbish at games, but your a cheat as well...
oswald wrote:
there were trainers back then already, and on the c64 you could kind of savestate games with the action replay cartridge aswell.
Ahhh you mean CHEAT carts...

:roll:

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Post by oswald » Mon Jul 30, 2007 2:04 am

Opa-Opa wrote: Yup... and if you want to cheat because you can't play the games how they were intended then not only are you rubbish at games, but your a cheat as well...
I dont care if you or anyone else considers my or anyone else's way of playing games cheating or not and nobody should. Nor I want to play many of them as they were intended to play:pixel perfect jumps, cycle perfect timings, or replaying every damned level threehundred times. no thanx.
oswald wrote: Ahhh you mean CHEAT carts...
:roll:
about 5% of their functionality was used for CHEATing :) but you are free to call them whatever you want.

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Post by Antiriad2097 » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:30 am

oswald wrote:
Opa-Opa wrote: Yup... and if you want to cheat because you can't play the games how they were intended then not only are you rubbish at games, but your a cheat as well...
I dont care if you or anyone else considers my or anyone else's way of playing games cheating or not and nobody should. Nor I want to play many of them as they were intended to play:pixel perfect jumps, cycle perfect timings, or replaying every damned level threehundred times. no thanx.
Whether you or anyone else cares or not is irrelevant. The fact remains you are still cheating.

If you are happy to accept that is how you get your enjoyment from a game, taht's fine. Just don't delude yourself into thinking it compares with really finishing a game.

For example: I played Flashback for the Mega Drive using a PSP emu with save states. I shamelessly used save states as restart points when I died, regularly saving before encounters. Did I enjoy the game? Hell yes. Was it cheating? Absolutely - there's no way I'd have survived so far without that. Did it extend my enjoyment of the game? Yup, I saw far more of it as I'd have given up much earlier without regular saves. Do I consider my 'completion' to have any comparison with the experience of someone who didn't save state? Nope, I'd be lying to myself if I did. But the fact remains - I played the game, I cheated, I still enjoyed the game, more so than I was before I started cheating.
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