Backwards Compatability

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Gamer Guy
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Re: Backwards Compatability

Post by Gamer Guy » Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:16 pm

pratty wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:32 pm
Gamer Guy wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:29 pm
i dunno, am i the only person here who thinks its hard to even consider buy a new console these days because of a lack of backwards compatibility? i have my switch and i love it. aside from that, i just prefer retro games as opposed to the new stuff.
I don't think you'd be alone in prefering the old stuff, but given you can just play the old hardware, I think most will still base their decision to buy a new system on what new games and gaming experiences it offers. That is after all the reason we bought N64s after Super Nintendos, and Dreamcasts after Saturns, with no concern for BC.

BC is useful when the new hardware makes a significant technological leap older games can take advantage of, such as a more modern TV connection, or a more comfortable controller. While that may help influence a purchase, that alone is hardly worth the hundreds that a new system tends to cost.

The reality is game systems and games are made for the here and now first and foremost, and always have been. I suspect next gen could be all digital software and true BC won't even be a thing. For the likes of us the preservation of hardware will be more important than ever if we still want to make use of our physical media collections in the future.
yes i agree, which is why they should be backwards compatible. it just seems like they dont allow it just to squeeze every last dime out of people.

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RetroBob
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Re: Backwards Compatability

Post by RetroBob » Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:30 pm

Gamer Guy wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:29 pm
i dunno, am i the only person here who thinks its hard to even consider buy a new console these days because of a lack of backwards compatibility? i have my switch and i love it. aside from that, i just prefer retro games as opposed to the new stuff.
I think that's crazy, the back compat., upscaling etc. on the XBox is fantastic.
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pratty
Posts: 5393
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Re: Backwards Compatability

Post by pratty » Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:22 pm

Gamer Guy wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:16 pm
i dunno, am i the only person here who thinks its hard to even consider buy a new console these days because of a lack of backwards compatibility? i have my switch and i love it. aside from that, i just prefer retro games as opposed to the new stuff...

...yes i agree, which is why they should be backwards compatible. it just seems like they dont allow it just to squeeze every last dime out of people.
I still think we're bering a bit entitled and idealistic. How far back do you think BC should go? Do you realisitically expect the Switch to have slots for NES and Gameboy carts? The issue is simplified for Microsoft and Sony because they're used discs for their home consoles but the principle remains. There are also practicalities to consider. Just as XBoxes and Playstations have consistantly used DVDS there is a general consistant form to their consoles. Where as Nintendo has had a bit more variety in their systems form and features to push gaming experiences in different directions, for better or worse, the trade of is that it can compromise backwards compatibility. Do we want our hardware and subsequently our gaming to evolve and experiement?

To their credit Nintendo have still implemented BC where it's been possible, but there not going to allow BC to hinder there decisions to go in new directions, for example when they conceived of the Switch discs had to go, and so with it BC with the Wii and Wii U, and the form of the Switch also makes it tricky to other handheld game carts.

Sure there's probably a way to make the Switch more backwards compatible but I really don't know enough about the technicalities of BC to estimate the cost of making a new system play every game from previous generations, but I would imagine there's more to it than we think. So there is a cost, that will be passed on to the consumer. When the average gamer buys a PS4 it's to play PS4 games, perhaps they don't want to pay the cost of BC, especially if they already own/owned a PS3, PS2 and PS1. As I understand it Playstations and Xboxes are sold at a loss as it is for the first few models, is it really realistic to expect them to include BC at further cost, just for the convenience of us not having to keep our PS3s and 360s handy, especially when there's revenue to be had re-releasing older games?

I'd like to pay as little for my gaming as the next person, but for the industry to exist at all we have to meet companies half way and pay a fair price for a fair product, and that should include a modest profit margin otherwise none of this would exist at all. I don't think it's unfair for a company to release a system that only plays new releases, I can still play the old hardware if I don't like it.
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GAZBEROTTEN
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Re: Backwards Compatability

Post by GAZBEROTTEN » Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:24 pm

Matt_B wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:14 am
GAZBEROTTEN wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:41 am
Hopefully, in the near future, we will begin to see improvements with the emulation as newer ways are discovered. I can't see there not being enough teams of people by then who would have released various emulators for the pc and given that there are thousands of Xbox and Playstation Branded disc-based games next gen consoles will be able to run the older systems games with these methods. It could be offered as an extra feature and wouldn't affect the new games for that system. Personally id rather have Backwards Compatibility with discs than having to rely on a digital download that is dependant on a hard drive that could break down resulting in having to redownload everything which could take ages and not to good for people who want to save time.
I think that there are pros and cons to both approaches. While it might sound nice in theory to just be able to pop your old disks in they can still be lost, scratched or just rot away in their cases. I'm quite meticulous in looking after my media, but there have still been a few casualties over the years, and it's thanks to downloads that I've been able to reacquire them. There's also the thorny issue of how many modern games require day one patches or access to online services, where having the original media alone wouldn't be enough to play them properly. That became pretty much routine during the lifetimes of the PS3 and 360.

Also, the approaches taken by both Sony and Microsoft have allowed them to offer a backwards compatibility service of sorts right now that would still be way off in the future if they were to be reliant upon generic emulators. That doesn't preclude them from offering such in the future though, but if you're going to need all that online infrastructure just to play the games anyway, they'll presumably still be offering downloads and/or streaming too.
I'm sure over time that will be rectified. Don't forget Sony shutdown Bleem because it did a great job of running PS1 games on the PC and even upscaled the graphics. Although I do wish Sony offered the creators of Bleem a job as the PS1 emulation on the PS2 could of been spectacular. Imagine the PS1 games upscaled on the Playstation 2 system at the time people would of been exstatic with that feature.
I'm not sure that that would have worked out well as Bleem might be able to run some games better, but there are rather more that it'll run worse or not at all. There are perhaps things that Sony could have done better with the backwards compatibility on the PS2, but by going with a hardware solution they managed to come up with something that'd work with nearly every game and there's no way that they could have done that with software at the time.

It's worth remembering that Sony actually lost their case against Bleem too. They just incurred huge legal costs in mounting a defence and that's what finished off the company. The precedent still stands though, which is why emulation of more recent consoles, albeit in a somewhat imperfect state, is a thing.
How much did Sony lose in legal costs mounting a defence? The only way I could see that happening is if Sony kept escalating the case for to long and ended up offending their customers over chasing this legal case resulting in sony upsetting the courts as well to the point where they just let the case continue as long as possible or am I wrong here and was it something else.
Gamer Guy wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:29 pm
i dunno, am i the only person here who thinks its hard to even consider buy a new console these days because of a lack of backwards compatibility? i have my switch and i love it. aside from that, i just prefer retro games as opposed to the new stuff.
While buying a new console for new games seems more easier there is still the issue that further comes down the line when retro consoles aren't produced anymore. You also have the problem of finding other consoles if one breaks down and that supply won't last forever. Backwards Compatability helps to tackle some of that problem.
pratty wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:32 pm
Gamer Guy wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:29 pm
i dunno, am i the only person here who thinks its hard to even consider buy a new console these days because of a lack of backwards compatibility? i have my switch and i love it. aside from that, i just prefer retro games as opposed to the new stuff.
I don't think you'd be alone in prefering the old stuff, but given you can just play the old hardware, I think most will still base their decision to buy a new system on what new games and gaming experiences it offers. That is after all the reason we bought N64s after Super Nintendos, and Dreamcasts after Saturns, with no concern for BC.

BC is useful when the new hardware makes a significant technological leap older games can take advantage of, such as a more modern TV connection, or a more comfortable controller. While that may help influence a purchase, that alone is hardly worth the hundreds that a new system tends to cost.

The reality is game systems and games are made for the here and now first and foremost, and always have been. I suspect next gen could be all digital software and true BC won't even be a thing. For the likes of us the preservation of hardware will be more important than ever if we still want to make use of our physical media collections in the future.
A lot of the best franchises on retro systems disappear and often when you do see sequels to some of the popular franchises from specific retro systems and last gen machines some but not all seem to be a letdown. When an old game from a previous generation that was running at a specific resolution and on a certain spec machine didnt look as good back then it could look far better and give the newer gamers something to be impressed with when it comes to retro games. So i do agree with you when the new hardware makes a significant leap the retro games can take advantage of.
Gamer Guy wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:16 pm
pratty wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:32 pm
Gamer Guy wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:29 pm
i dunno, am i the only person here who thinks its hard to even consider buy a new console these days because of a lack of backwards compatibility? i have my switch and i love it. aside from that, i just prefer retro games as opposed to the new stuff.
I don't think you'd be alone in prefering the old stuff, but given you can just play the old hardware, I think most will still base their decision to buy a new system on what new games and gaming experiences it offers. That is after all the reason we bought N64s after Super Nintendos, and Dreamcasts after Saturns, with no concern for BC.

BC is useful when the new hardware makes a significant technological leap older games can take advantage of, such as a more modern TV connection, or a more comfortable controller. While that may help influence a purchase, that alone is hardly worth the hundreds that a new system tends to cost.

The reality is game systems and games are made for the here and now first and foremost, and always have been. I suspect next gen could be all digital software and true BC won't even be a thing. For the likes of us the preservation of hardware will be more important than ever if we still want to make use of our physical media collections in the future.
yes i agree, which is why they should be backwards compatible. it just seems like they dont allow it just to squeeze every last dime out of people.
Sony, for example, could release a new console that just runs PS1 2 and 3 Hardware only. This would also allow them to allow the older games to run even which would take advantage of the PS3s hardware to run these games. Like a retro version of the PlayStation console to celebrate the three generations of the brand's history but I can't see Sony doing that.
Microsoft neither as they are offering this with the Xbox One but limited games still out of the thousands available.
RetroBob wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:30 pm
Gamer Guy wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:29 pm
i dunno, am i the only person here who thinks its hard to even consider buy a new console these days because of a lack of backwards compatibility? i have my switch and i love it. aside from that, i just prefer retro games as opposed to the new stuff.
I think that's crazy, the back compat., upscaling etc. on the XBox is fantastic.
It depends on how many people agree with you on this though. One thing I have noticed is that on the Xbox User Voice website a lot of people are still asking for more games to be made backwards compatible and are voting for them that aren't even on the current XB1 backwards compatibility list.
pratty wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:22 pm
Gamer Guy wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:16 pm
i dunno, am i the only person here who thinks its hard to even consider buy a new console these days because of a lack of backwards compatibility? i have my switch and i love it. aside from that, i just prefer retro games as opposed to the new stuff...

...yes i agree, which is why they should be backwards compatible. it just seems like they dont allow it just to squeeze every last dime out of people.
I still think we're bering a bit entitled and idealistic. How far back do you think BC should go? Do you realisitically expect the Switch to have slots for NES and Gameboy carts? The issue is simplified for Microsoft and Sony because they're used discs for their home consoles but the principle remains. There are also practicalities to consider. Just as XBoxes and Playstations have consistantly used DVDS there is a general consistant form to their consoles. Where as Nintendo has had a bit more variety in their systems form and features to push gaming experiences in different directions, for better or worse, the trade of is that it can compromise backwards compatibility. Do we want our hardware and subsequently our gaming to evolve and experiement?

To their credit Nintendo have still implemented BC where it's been possible, but there not going to allow BC to hinder there decisions to go in new directions, for example when they conceived of the Switch discs had to go, and so with it BC with the Wii and Wii U, and the form of the Switch also makes it tricky to other handheld game carts.

Sure there's probably a way to make the Switch more backwards compatible but I really don't know enough about the technicalities of BC to estimate the cost of making a new system play every game from previous generations, but I would imagine there's more to it than we think. So there is a cost, that will be passed on to the consumer. When the average gamer buys a PS4 it's to play PS4 games, perhaps they don't want to pay the cost of BC, especially if they already own/owned a PS3, PS2 and PS1. As I understand it Playstations and Xboxes are sold at a loss as it is for the first few models, is it really realistic to expect them to include BC at further cost, just for the convenience of us not having to keep our PS3s and 360s handy, especially when there's revenue to be had re-releasing older games?

I'd like to pay as little for my gaming as the next person, but for the industry to exist at all we have to meet companies half way and pay a fair price for a fair product, and that should include a modest profit margin otherwise none of this would exist at all. I don't think it's unfair for a company to release a system that only plays new releases, I can still play the old hardware if I don't like it.
If the console is not cd based then yes id agree with there being a limit. However, if there are ways to reduce the cost of a system to do this and in the future, it won't be that to expensive to eventually include BC into newer systems. The problem though would be finding enough people in a team and those with the expertise and skill set to do it. There is also time issues as well as other things such as having to explain to an entire fanbase that the hundreds if not thousands of pounds they have spent on there old games will not work on the new next-gen system. Doesn't inspire confidence for the previous generations of gamers on those systems really and deters them from moving forward.

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Matt_B
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Re: Backwards Compatability

Post by Matt_B » Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:19 am

I'd think it pretty obvious that the Switch couldn't have offered backwards compatibility with the Wii U or indeed any of Nintendo's home consoles. Both the internal architecture and the form factor are just too much of a radical departure. That's not to say that they can't port the games to it, as they've been doing just that; it's just that there'd be no means to offer the ability to put your old disks in (where would you even put them?) and play them.

They could perhaps have made it backwards compatible with the 2DS, and maybe other handhelds, but that'd have to come with some serious limitations. There's the move to a single HD screen rather than two low res ones, different touch technologies, etc. that might make some games less than optimal to play. The biggest hurdle would just be that fitting any extra hardware into it would increase the size and weight of something that's already pushing the envelope for handheld operation.

Where they have fallen down for me is in the lack of a Virtual Console service, but that's a somewhat different issue to being able to play your old games on physical media.

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Matt_B
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Re: Backwards Compatability

Post by Matt_B » Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:53 am

GAZBEROTTEN wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:24 pm
How much did Sony lose in legal costs mounting a defence? The only way I could see that happening is if Sony kept escalating the case for to long and ended up offending their customers over chasing this legal case resulting in sony upsetting the courts as well to the point where they just let the case continue as long as possible or am I wrong here and was it something else.
Sony's legal costs would be confidential, but it's no secret that the case was basically a SLAPP. That's usually how it goes when a multi-billion dollar corporation sues a small startup; the pressure is on to settle the matter out of court, because it's a lose-lose scenario if it gets that far.

However, by seeing the case through they did us all a service as Sony can't now pull the same trick twice. A precedent has been set and anyone else they tried to silence by such tactics could get the case dismissed by referring to it.

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RetroBob
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Re: Backwards Compatability

Post by RetroBob » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:30 am

RetroBob wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:30 pm
Gamer Guy wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:29 pm
i dunno, am i the only person here who thinks its hard to even consider buy a new console these days because of a lack of backwards compatibility? i have my switch and i love it. aside from that, i just prefer retro games as opposed to the new stuff.
I think that's crazy, the back compat., upscaling etc. on the XBox is fantastic.
GAZBEROTTEN wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:24 pm
It depends on how many people agree with you on this though. One thing I have noticed is that on the Xbox User Voice website a lot of people are still asking for more games to be made backwards compatible and are voting for them that aren't even on the current XB1 backwards compatibility list.

Well that's the internet... this last week we had a game announced that people have been asking for for years... Streets of Rage 4, then I see comments "great what about Golden Axe". Some people are ungrateful, entitled and spoilt.
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GAZBEROTTEN
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Re: Backwards Compatability

Post by GAZBEROTTEN » Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:25 pm

Matt_B wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:19 am
I'd think it pretty obvious that the Switch couldn't have offered backwards compatibility with the Wii U or indeed any of Nintendo's home consoles. Both the internal architecture and the form factor are just too much of a radical departure. That's not to say that they can't port the games to it, as they've been doing just that; it's just that there'd be no means to offer the ability to put your old disks in (where would you even put them?) and play them.

They could perhaps have made it backwards compatible with the 2DS, and maybe other handhelds, but that'd have to come with some serious limitations. There's the move to a single HD screen rather than two low res ones, different touch technologies, etc. that might make some games less than optimal to play. The biggest hurdle would just be that fitting any extra hardware into it would increase the size and weight of something that's already pushing the envelope for handheld operation.

Where they have fallen down for me is in the lack of a Virtual Console service, but that's a somewhat different issue to being able to play your old games on physical media.
Interestingly I see that Nintendo has now announced their online service won't be free to use to play games online and that they are offering free NES games with the subscription. So NES games via digital download will be playable on the Switch that some form of Backwards Compatability I guess.
Matt_B wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:53 am
GAZBEROTTEN wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:24 pm
How much did Sony lose in legal costs mounting a defence? The only way I could see that happening is if Sony kept escalating the case for to long and ended up offending their customers over chasing this legal case resulting in sony upsetting the courts as well to the point where they just let the case continue as long as possible or am I wrong here and was it something else.
Sony's legal costs would be confidential, but it's no secret that the case was basically a SLAPP. That's usually how it goes when a multi-billion dollar corporation sues a small startup; the pressure is on to settle the matter out of court, because it's a lose-lose scenario if it gets that far.

However, by seeing the case through they did us all a service as Sony can't now pull the same trick twice. A precedent has been set and anyone else they tried to silence by such tactics could get the case dismissed by referring to it.
Well, that's good news at least and would stop any more foolish and pointless problems arising in the future.
RetroBob wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:30 am
RetroBob wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:30 pm
Gamer Guy wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:29 pm
i dunno, am i the only person here who thinks its hard to even consider buy a new console these days because of a lack of backwards compatibility? i have my switch and i love it. aside from that, i just prefer retro games as opposed to the new stuff.
I think that's crazy, the back compat., upscaling etc. on the XBox is fantastic.
GAZBEROTTEN wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:24 pm
It depends on how many people agree with you on this though. One thing I have noticed is that on the Xbox User Voice website a lot of people are still asking for more games to be made backwards compatible and are voting for them that aren't even on the current XB1 backwards compatibility list.

Well that's the internet... this last week we had a game announced that people have been asking for for years... Streets of Rage 4, then I see comments "great what about Golden Axe". Some people are ungrateful, entitled and spoilt.
I was surprised when Sega announced the fourth game. I really didn't think we would have ever seen it happen until the 2030's or possibly never. I actually really happy we got the fourth game although Sega could still port many of there retro games to newer systems or release newer sequels to avoid the backwards compatibility issue of there retro games people still want to play on the newer systems.

pratty
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Re: Backwards Compatability

Post by pratty » Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:57 pm

GAZBEROTTEN wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:24 pm
If the console is not cd based then yes id agree with there being a limit. However, if there are ways to reduce the cost of a system to do this and in the future, it won't be that to expensive to eventually include BC into newer systems. The problem though would be finding enough people in a team and those with the expertise and skill set to do it. There is also time issues as well as other things such as having to explain to an entire fanbase that the hundreds if not thousands of pounds they have spent on there old games will not work on the new next-gen system. Doesn't inspire confidence for the previous generations of gamers on those systems really and deters them from moving forward.
I disagree, I'm not even certain they'll be using discs for future generations, I can't see them adding a disc drive at additional expense, however cheap, purely for backwards compatibility, while reducing the scope to re-sell older games themselves in the process.

I also don't think BC is that high of a priority for the majority of gamers. I'd suggest most gamers (ie the mass market) actually sell their older systems and games when a new generation of consoles come out. The solution to a lack of BC is to simply keep your old hardware and games, those that don't are evidently prepared to leave those games in the past and would seem all too ready to move forward to the next generation. By your logic the systems of the past that didn't have BC shouldn't have succeeded, and were cynically made that way out of greed, rather than simply a focus on the desire for something new.
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GAZBEROTTEN
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Re: Backwards Compatability

Post by GAZBEROTTEN » Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:08 pm

pratty wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:57 pm
GAZBEROTTEN wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:24 pm
If the console is not cd based then yes id agree with there being a limit. However, if there are ways to reduce the cost of a system to do this and in the future, it won't be that to expensive to eventually include BC into newer systems. The problem though would be finding enough people in a team and those with the expertise and skill set to do it. There is also time issues as well as other things such as having to explain to an entire fanbase that the hundreds if not thousands of pounds they have spent on there old games will not work on the new next-gen system. Doesn't inspire confidence for the previous generations of gamers on those systems really and deters them from moving forward.
I disagree, I'm not even certain they'll be using discs for future generations, I can't see them adding a disc drive at additional expense, however cheap, purely for backwards compatibility, while reducing the scope to re-sell older games themselves in the process.

I also don't think BC is that high of a priority for the majority of gamers. I'd suggest most gamers (ie the mass market) actually sell their older systems and games when a new generation of consoles come out. The solution to a lack of BC is to simply keep your old hardware and games, those that don't are evidently prepared to leave those games in the past and would seem all too ready to move forward to the next generation. By your logic the systems of the past that didn't have BC shouldn't have succeeded, and were cynically made that way out of greed, rather than simply a focus on the desire for something new.
I have supported both Sony and Microsoft since the first consoles they had launched. During that time i had bought and enjoyed the newer games on these systems. I dont think its really greed however when you have Sony tell people hey your PS3 is backwards compatible with PS 2 games then forcibly removes it from people then tells them they cant go online until you update thats was raises a red flag for me as a retro gamer. Microsoft offer bc that doesnt require you to stream games either not have they forcibly removed it so it raises valid questions about Sonys deccisions.

Keeping your old hardware has disadvantages like cluttering up the space you have as well as if the cable from lets say a gamecube will even fit into newer hdtvs.

pratty
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Re: Backwards Compatability

Post by pratty » Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:48 pm

GAZBEROTTEN wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:08 pm
I dont think its really greed however when you have Sony tell people hey your PS3 is backwards compatible with PS 2 games then forcibly removes it from people then tells them they cant go online until you update thats was raises a red flag for me as a retro gamer. Microsoft offer bc that doesnt require you to stream games either not have they forcibly removed it so it raises valid questions about Sonys deccisions.
Well sure, that's a censored-move by Sony and they deserved to be punished by the market going elsewhere, but that's not the same as not including BC from the begining.
GAZBEROTTEN wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:08 pm
Keeping your old hardware has disadvantages like cluttering up the space you have as well as if the cable from lets say a gamecube will even fit into newer hdtvs.
Mate, you're not wrong , but those are some real first world problems. Do you really expect Nintendo, right now (pushing the Switch and to some the extent the 3/2DS since they're the consoles they actually make money on), to be concerned whether a retaively small number of people can plug their Gamecubes into their brand new TVs, so they don't have to be inconvenienced with the clutter of hardware that the majority of retro gamers actually prefer? How much are you willing to pay? Or do you think Nintendo should foot the bill for retro gamer's convenience? How would Nintendo even know if they made any money from these people to owe them anything?

Like I said I think expectations are way too high. I just payed £120 for a Gamecube HDMI adapter, because I understand Nintendo have got better things to do. Sure they might release Gamecube games on the Switch and I hope they do, but that's not true BC, and people will only moan either "there's too many ports, where are the new games?" or "I shouldn't be expected to buy the same game twice," even though Nintendo aren't forcing them to buy anything.
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GAZBEROTTEN
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Re: Backwards Compatability

Post by GAZBEROTTEN » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:47 pm

pratty wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:48 pm
GAZBEROTTEN wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:08 pm
I dont think its really greed however when you have Sony tell people hey your PS3 is backwards compatible with PS 2 games then forcibly removes it from people then tells them they cant go online until you update thats was raises a red flag for me as a retro gamer. Microsoft offer bc that doesnt require you to stream games either not have they forcibly removed it so it raises valid questions about Sonys deccisions.
Well sure, that's a censored-move by Sony and they deserved to be punished by the market going elsewhere, but that's not the same as not including BC from the begining.
GAZBEROTTEN wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:08 pm
Keeping your old hardware has disadvantages like cluttering up the space you have as well as if the cable from lets say a gamecube will even fit into newer hdtvs.
Mate, you're not wrong , but those are some real first world problems. Do you really expect Nintendo, right now (pushing the Switch and to some the extent the 3/2DS since they're the consoles they actually make money on), to be concerned whether a retaively small number of people can plug their Gamecubes into their brand new TVs, so they don't have to be inconvenienced with the clutter of hardware that the majority of retro gamers actually prefer? How much are you willing to pay? Or do you think Nintendo should foot the bill for retro gamer's convenience? How would Nintendo even know if they made any money from these people to owe them anything?

Like I said I think expectations are way too high. I just payed £120 for a Gamecube HDMI adapter, because I understand Nintendo have got better things to do. Sure they might release Gamecube games on the Switch and I hope they do, but that's not true BC, and people will only moan either "there's too many ports, where are the new games?" or "I shouldn't be expected to buy the same game twice," even though Nintendo aren't forcing them to buy anything.
Ok valid points and great debate. Just wondering if instead of offering full BC by Microsoft,Sony and Nintendo would you accept ports of the best games from a last gen system if these ports offered perks like extended storys, new charicters bigger mapss etc over the original game. It would give people new games plus more to look forward to. This would reduce the need to have to keep getting an old system out. Then BC would be offered on a smaller number of games that didnt have ports.

I as a retro gamer have noticed a rise in the number of indie games becomming popular but am worried this will only end up going back to square one.None of the Xbox 360 indie games are backwards compatible on the Xbox one which leads me to wonder what the indie community thinks about that. and how some of the best Xbox 360 indie titles are not supported on Xbox One?

pratty
Posts: 5393
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:13 pm

Re: Backwards Compatability

Post by pratty » Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:57 pm

GAZBEROTTEN wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:47 pm
Ok valid points and great debate. Just wondering if instead of offering full BC by Microsoft,Sony and Nintendo would you accept ports of the best games from a last gen system if these ports offered perks like extended storys, new charicters bigger mapss etc over the original game. It would give people new games plus more to look forward to. This would reduce the need to have to keep getting an old system out. Then BC would be offered on a smaller number of games that didnt have ports.
I like ports and any extra content and genuine improvement, I seem to be one of the few people that doesn't complain about their entirely optional existance. On the last point though even limited BC is still going to require the physical infrastructure to facilitate it. If consoles go 100% digital next gen they're not going to include disc drives purely for BC, it's just not worth their while.
GAZBEROTTEN wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:47 pm
I as a retro gamer have noticed a rise in the number of indie games becomming popular but am worried this will only end up going back to square one.None of the Xbox 360 indie games are backwards compatible on the Xbox one which leads me to wonder what the indie community thinks about that. and how some of the best Xbox 360 indie titles are not supported on Xbox One?
Hate to sound cynical but what's in it for indy devs if they were? Who's buying brand new XBOX 360 games these days? They want to make money, not ensure their old games (that they're not making any money on) are played until the end of time at no extra cost to the gamer, it's better for them that they re-release ports of their games on new hardware.

If you're refering to 360 digital releases not being offered on the XBox One, then we're not talking about BC, we're talking ports. And then a digital re-release is for them and Microsoft to negotiate, it could be that the devs themselves aren't making a deal happen for whatever reason, or there isn't enough perceived demand for these games on the XBox One to make it worth anyone's while. This why we those of us that value older games need to look after our hardware and the digital content on them, and not be so quick to sell them off as soon as the next big thing comes out, unfortuntely BC just can't be taken for granted because gaming is primarily focused on the here and now, and the retro gamers we still enjoy were a product of the same mentalilty.
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kiwimike
Posts: 3644
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:20 am
Location: Chch, NZ

Re: Backwards Compatability

Post by kiwimike » Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:05 pm

Have not upgraded from 360, but love the fact I have Conkers BFD remake I can play from original Xbox. So if I did upgrade, it'd make sense to get a XB1 personally as I have 50 odd 360 games and Conker, and could look out for say Monkey Ball from original Xbox as well, so you have an instant library and access to many cheap 360 AAA titles as you look to get your selection of XB1 games underway :)

GAZBEROTTEN
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:08 pm

Re: Backwards Compatability

Post by GAZBEROTTEN » Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:44 am

pratty wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:57 pm
GAZBEROTTEN wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:47 pm
Ok valid points and great debate. Just wondering if instead of offering full BC by Microsoft,Sony and Nintendo would you accept ports of the best games from a last gen system if these ports offered perks like extended storys, new charicters bigger mapss etc over the original game. It would give people new games plus more to look forward to. This would reduce the need to have to keep getting an old system out. Then BC would be offered on a smaller number of games that didnt have ports.
I like ports and any extra content and genuine improvement, I seem to be one of the few people that doesn't complain about their entirely optional existance. On the last point though even limited BC is still going to require the physical infrastructure to facilitate it. If consoles go 100% digital next gen they're not going to include disc drives purely for BC, it's just not worth their while.
GAZBEROTTEN wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:47 pm
I as a retro gamer have noticed a rise in the number of indie games becomming popular but am worried this will only end up going back to square one.None of the Xbox 360 indie games are backwards compatible on the Xbox one which leads me to wonder what the indie community thinks about that. and how some of the best Xbox 360 indie titles are not supported on Xbox One?
Hate to sound cynical but what's in it for indy devs if they were? Who's buying brand new XBOX 360 games these days? They want to make money, not ensure their old games (that they're not making any money on) are played until the end of time at no extra cost to the gamer, it's better for them that they re-release ports of their games on new hardware.

If you're refering to 360 digital releases not being offered on the XBox One, then we're not talking about BC, we're talking ports. And then a digital re-release is for them and Microsoft to negotiate, it could be that the devs themselves aren't making a deal happen for whatever reason, or there isn't enough perceived demand for these games on the XBox One to make it worth anyone's while. This why we those of us that value older games need to look after our hardware and the digital content on them, and not be so quick to sell them off as soon as the next big thing comes out, unfortuntely BC just can't be taken for granted because gaming is primarily focused on the here and now, and the retro gamers we still enjoy were a product of the same mentalilty.
There are Xbox 360 indie games that are available on digital download. These titles, because they are available in digital download, could then be amended or have slight amendments made to the code so they could run on the Xbox One. This would then mean that those who owned the indie game from Xbox 360 could play it on their Xbox One and those on Xbox One could also purchase this. A lot of Xbox 360 indie games would still appeal to the newer generation of Xbox One players and could still make money. With indie games being a big thing nowadays its wouldn't be to hard to promote some of the best Xbox 360 indie games to people and still allow developers to sell existing and new indie titles which would also encourage more indie games to be produced.
I look after my old hardware as well but when you have a system clearly capable of playing older games and it not being used to its full potential then it limits the number of games available on that system which isn't good for anyone including the retro gamer who happens to be a fan and longtime supporter of that platform.
kiwimike wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:05 pm
Have not upgraded from 360, but love the fact I have Conkers BFD remake I can play from original Xbox. So if I did upgrade, it'd make sense to get a XB1 personally as I have 50 odd 360 games and Conker, and could look out for say Monkey Ball from original Xbox as well, so you have an instant library and access to many cheap 360 AAA titles as you look to get your selection of XB1 games underway :)
I do wonder how many people from Xbox 360 have not upgraded to the Xbox One. It does show though that Microsoft needs to be finding ways to get the Xbox 360 fanbase to jump to Xbox One and with Sony beating there competitor Microsoft in console sales, Microsoft needs to look further into issues like BC on the Xbox One and see if they can squeeze in a few more games to support. Granted more games get supported each month but if that amount rose more people from Xbox 360 would think you know what I could use a new system and some new games and if I get bored I can play my Xbox 360 ones too.
That would bring anyone over but sadly it simply isn't being done.

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