Which was really better - 64 or ZX?

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Which was better?

The 64. SID power!
28
41%
The ZX. Cheaper and cooler.
28
41%
I was the odd CPC kid
8
12%
Atari forever!
4
6%
Something else entirely
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 68

retrofan011
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Re: Which was really better - 64 or ZX?

Post by retrofan011 » Wed Apr 27, 2016 8:05 am

@Matt_B

Considering that Bomberman C64 is amazing game, the only flaw you found is the year of release...
How old game have to be, to get recognition from you?

About good 3d games, here are just some of them: Twin Tornado, Moonfall, Quark 9, Revs, Grand Prix Circuit, Arctic Fox, Cholo, I play 3d tennis, Encounter, Flight Simulator 2, Space Rouge, Chuck Yeager, Stellar 7...
Many of them are incredible achievement for 1MHz CPU and a lot of them do not exist on Spectrum.
So, even if you're an octopus this is much more than the fingers you have. :mrgreen:

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Matt_B
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Re: Which was really better - 64 or ZX?

Post by Matt_B » Wed Apr 27, 2016 8:58 am

retrofan011 wrote:@Matt_B

Considering that Bomberman C64 is amazing game, the only flaw you found is the year of release...
How old game have to be, to get recognition from you?
If we're talking about back in the day, and the OP does mention the 80s and early 90s, I'd think that from before 1994 when Commodore went bust would be a good starting point. Still, if you want to bring up later games as an illustration of what's possible on the hardware, that seems fair enough.

Mainly though, it's not exactly comparing like with like when you're looking at games made two decades apart. At least try to pick ones from the same year, although even then a lot could change in the space of a few months back then.
About good 3d games, here are just some of them: Twin Tornado, Moonfall, Quark 9, Revs, Grand Prix Circuit, Arctic Fox, Cholo, I play 3d tennis, Encounter, Flight Simulator 2, Space Rouge, Chuck Yeager, Stellar 7...
Many of them are incredible achievement for 1MHz CPU and a lot of them do not exist on Spectrum.
So, even if you're an octopus this is much more than the fingers you have. :mrgreen:
Half of those don't even use vector graphics; of course you can get decent performance out of the C64 if it doesn't have to calculate and draw any lines or polygons! Of the rest, you're mostly looking at flight simulators, Battlezone clones, and sim racers and it's not as if faster examples don't exist on the Spectrum. And Cholo is definitely faster on the Spectrum too.

Still, I'll give you Space Rogue. It struggles a bit to get above four frames per second and looks a tad sluggish compared to the likes of Starfox and Starstrike II, but it's still an impressive achievement on the C64. That's four fingers left though...

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joefish
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Re: Which was really better - 64 or ZX?

Post by joefish » Wed Apr 27, 2016 9:04 am

Clearly you're not comparing like-for-like when comparing an 80s game to something written in 2007. How about comparing your 2007 game to something written in 2015, where the Spectrum does come off better?

As for your list of 3D games, several are simply 2D sprite-based and more than half are simply awful. Quark IX, seriously?

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adippm82
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Re: Which was really better - 64 or ZX?

Post by adippm82 » Wed Apr 27, 2016 9:15 am

And in the interest of fairness, if we are going to compare versions of Stunt Car Racer, how about showing it at the speed a C64 actually runs it at!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSCi5tOqhCk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B22eAag6SXY

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Matt_B
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Re: Which was really better - 64 or ZX?

Post by Matt_B » Wed Apr 27, 2016 9:23 am

adippm82 wrote:And in the interest of fairness, if we are going to compare versions of Stunt Car Racer, how about showing it at the speed a C64 actually runs it at!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSCi5tOqhCk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B22eAag6SXY
Haha. I hadn't even noticed that he'd linked a speeded up version before. Still, I think we've all figured out the game he's playing.

That said, I'd think the game is impressive enough on the C64, and Crammond's games in general were all very good

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Re: Which was really better - 64 or ZX?

Post by retrofan011 » Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:12 am

Regarding Bomb Jack, I agree that the C64 version has plenty of room for improvement.
I can announce a new modern version (currently in beta stage) and I hope that will be completed soon.
There are plenty of improvements, not only in gameplay and it looks really good so far:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L65H93CNor0
http://www.forum64.de/index.php?thread/ ... /&pageNo=1

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outdated_gamer
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Re: Which was really better - 64 or ZX?

Post by outdated_gamer » Wed Apr 27, 2016 12:16 pm

Matt_B wrote: The dedicated graphics chip in the C64 is all well and good if you're only interested in games with a few small sprites and a single scrolling bitplane, but that's pretty much all they give the machine an advantage with. And I pity anyone for whom that was the totality of their gaming horizons either back then or now.

Heck, even on the C64 many of its best games don't use either of those capabilities much. The likes of Pirates, Maniac Mansion and Pool of Radiance would all be good reasons to own the machine back in the day, as they're great games; the fact they've got mostly static screens with Lego-brick graphics doesn't enter into it.

I won't deny that the C64 has a few good isometric games, but there are dozens of them on the Spectrum. To be honest, I got a bit bored of them back in the day as there seemed to be three or for new ones every month for several years, but once in a while you'd get a Gunfright or Quazatron that stood out from the crowd, and there are plenty of hidden gems that passed me by at the time too.

And 3D games? Have you never heard of Mercenary, Elite and The Sentinel? They're three of the most highly regarded games on the C64 full stop. You massively missed out if you never enjoyed them. There might be more faster and slicker games in that mould for the Spectrum, but they're a bit strength in the catalogue of both machines.
For a 82 machine that aimed at becoming a mainstream household computer and was an upgrade to the VIC-20, the C=64 was perfectly fine, hardware wise. If you wanted a premium product, you had to wait up till the Amiga came out. Personally, I don't really understand the "blocky graphics" criticism. It's a early 80s cost reduced home computer, of course it will have blocky graphics. And the C=64 still wasn't quite as limited as the ZX was when it came to graphics and sound. Now I would agree that quite some developers were doing coding magic on the ZX and there is a certain charm to how it's games looked like, I'd still point out that C=64 games generally ran faster and smoother and had more catchy tunes.

I know of those early 3D games, usually the vector 3D stuff worked but when it came to full (filled) polygon 3D, both systems were pretty slide-showy. Of course there were some exceptions to the rule, but you really ought to play those type of games on the much faster Amiga or ST (or a strong DOS PC or Mac).

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outdated_gamer
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Re: Which was really better - 64 or ZX?

Post by outdated_gamer » Wed Apr 27, 2016 12:24 pm

Matt_B wrote:
joefish wrote:Sad thing is, it's only former C64 owners that obsess about 50Hz frame rates anyway! :lol:
Yeah. If frame rate was everything, we'd all be PC gamers with 144Hz monitors. However, it isn't and we aren't.
Well, higher framerates are objectively better for gameplay so... :wink:

I always cringe when I hear about "cinematic 30 fps". Why not admit they just sacrificed the framerate for better visuals? :wink:

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The Laird
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Re: Which was really better - 64 or ZX?

Post by The Laird » Wed Apr 27, 2016 12:34 pm

retrofan011 wrote:Regarding Bomb Jack, I agree that the C64 version has plenty of room for improvement.
I can announce a new modern version (currently in beta stage) and I hope that will be completed soon.
There are plenty of improvements, not only in gameplay and it looks really good so far:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L65H93CNor0
http://www.forum64.de/index.php?thread/ ... /&pageNo=1
Best 8-bit version of BombJack is on the Atari, and you can argue all you want but the Commodore 64 cannot do 256 colours or 5 channel sound :P

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KO-cFt8ARX8

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outdated_gamer
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Re: Which was really better - 64 or ZX?

Post by outdated_gamer » Wed Apr 27, 2016 12:45 pm

Katzkatz wrote: Of the 8 bit machines though, I am impressed with Atari 800 range. The POKEY gives the SID a really serious run for its money, on sound. The graphics are also very good on those machines. I suspect that I overlooked that machine a bit, but I did know someone who owned it - only ever saw Druid 2 on it. I think it might have been because everyone either had a Spectrum or C64 by then. I'd say that it's a very technically advanced machine.
Atari 8-bit was indeed an amazing system for a late 70s release, but it hasn't really caught on. I don't know why exactly but it seems Atari missmanaged their computer line a bit, giving Speccy the headroom in the Euro zone.

Anyway, here's is an excellent documentary about the ZX vs 64 war:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUnjoztg1Fg

I agree with most of what is said in this vid although I'd also add that the Speccy was pretty popular in Eastern Europe and South America too, mostly due to clone systems and easy copying of games.

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The Laird
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Re: Which was really better - 64 or ZX?

Post by The Laird » Wed Apr 27, 2016 12:48 pm

outdated_gamer wrote:
Katzkatz wrote: Atari 8-bit was indeed an amazing system for a late 70s release, but it hasn't really caught on. I don't know why exactly but it seems Atari missmanaged their computer line a bit, giving Speccy the headroom in the Euro zone.
The problem in Europe was price, it wasn't a cheap computer to produce in the earlier years. Still, the whole range sold 5 million worldwide, so it outsold the Amstrad and many others.

retrofan011
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Re: Which was really better - 64 or ZX?

Post by retrofan011 » Wed Apr 27, 2016 1:22 pm

The Laird wrote:
retrofan011 wrote:Regarding Bomb Jack, I agree that the C64 version has plenty of room for improvement.
I can announce a new modern version (currently in beta stage) and I hope that will be completed soon.
There are plenty of improvements, not only in gameplay and it looks really good so far:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L65H93CNor0
http://www.forum64.de/index.php?thread/ ... /&pageNo=1
Best 8-bit version of BombJack is on the Atari, and you can argue all you want but the Commodore 64 cannot do 256 colours or 5 channel sound :P

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KO-cFt8ARX8
Who arguing?
Where I ever said that this new Bomb Jack will be the best of all 8bit machines? Enlighten me, please?
It will be much better than the original C64 version and certainly one of the best overal.
However, when we talk about Bomberman, then I can say that the best 8bit version is on C64.
Atari doesnt have that amount of top quality games, like C64 or Spectrum and will never have.

btw, today was the first time I saw another great project - Civilization for C64, really awesome stuff:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt_B9fFIaNE

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ncf1
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Re: Which was really better - 64 or ZX?

Post by ncf1 » Wed Apr 27, 2016 2:03 pm

I loved Bombjack on the 64! Played it for ages. For me it was a bit like the Wonderboy conversion; a bit slower, not a perfect conversion but just fine the way they programmed it, In fact for me anyway I preferred the 64 Bombjack as well as the 64 Wonderboy versions to the arcade versions. And Salamander also. Some arcade game for me were a tad too fast and the slower 64 versions for me were more enjoyable.

That's a good topic actually... which computer games you felt were better than their arcade counterparts. Or at least more fun. I'd also throw Bubble Bobble in there as well; I preferred the Amiga and 64 versions both to the arcade version which I thought was a touch too fast and hard.

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paranoid marvin
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Re: Which was really better - 64 or ZX?

Post by paranoid marvin » Wed Apr 27, 2016 2:13 pm

Buggy Boy on the C64 was far better than the arcade original

Also preferred Green Bert and Commando on the Speccy to the arcade versions.
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ncf1
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Re: Which was really better - 64 or ZX?

Post by ncf1 » Wed Apr 27, 2016 2:15 pm

paranoid marvin wrote:Buggy Boy on the C64 was far better than the arcade original

Also preferred Green Bert and Commando on the Speccy to the arcade versions.
Oh yes Buggy Boy was magic on the C64, endlessly playable, superb conversion and I prefer it to the arcade also.

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