Atari vs C64 // was: 8-Bit Computer Poll

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Best 8-Bit

ZX Spectrum
109
41%
Commodore 64
121
46%
Amstrad CPC 464
25
10%
BBC Micro
8
3%
 
Total votes: 263

emkay
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Post by emkay » Sun May 13, 2007 5:19 pm

May I mention one thing.


This thread originally is about the best 8 Bit Game Computer, right?
So , clearly, it is the C64. Why? It simply has the best game database available.
This is the true fact!

But, what would have happenend, if the A8 was the main 8 bit computer with games that took advantage of it's capabilities?

Having a look at the full A8's capabilities, 3D worlds are possible from scratch...
The Antic, with its modes, makes it possible to have very fast 3D.
The Lucasfilm Games were only a pointer toward what is possible.
If the C64 wasn't the main computer of the 80's , possibliy, the coding optimization of the A8 would have been the main goal.
To make it short: If the A8 was the main machine in the 80's the 3D era wouldn't have started in the late 90's.... it would have started in the 70's....

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neuromancer
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Post by neuromancer » Sun May 13, 2007 5:36 pm

hi Frobenius,

Thanks for your very detailed post - this thread just keeps on giving! I've learned more about the Pokey in one post than ever before.

Shame the internet as we know it didn't exist when I was coding for the A8 in the 80s...

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TMR
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Post by TMR » Sun May 13, 2007 7:10 pm

emkay wrote:Well without Interlace the Atari can do more colours per line than the C64 has at 160 pixel width.

http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.ph ... t&id=19535

This picture shows up to 14 colours per scanline without interlace.
i'm assuming these two statements follow on... in which case, the C64 and CPC both do 16 colours per scanline (so it's not more on the Atari) and the Plus/4 does over eighty.

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TMR
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Post by TMR » Sun May 13, 2007 7:13 pm

neuromancer wrote:
gury wrote: Sure... Here are links to some of the best cross-assemblers for 8-bit Atari:
http://mads.atari8.info/
http://atariarea.krap.pl/x-asm/
http://atari.miribilist.com/atasm/
http://www.cc65.org/ (C programming for all 6502 machines)

I hope it will help you to decide. Please inform us if you make something for the machine in the future :wink:
Thanks Gury; If I ever get something working I'll let you know (It's going to be a long journey though as I don't think you can go much further than from C# to 6502C assembler...!)
Quick personal recommendation for Xasm (s'by Fox/Taquart, that says quite a bit) from this end; it's not perfect (no text string commands, i had to convert loads of stuff to raw binary files!) but, when y'get used to it, it's pretty decent.

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TMR
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Post by TMR » Sun May 13, 2007 7:14 pm

emkay wrote:To make it short: If the A8 was the main machine in the 80's the 3D era wouldn't have started in the late 90's.... it would have started in the 70's....
Well, personally i see that as a good thing - give me 2D any day of the week! =-)

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Allas
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Post by Allas » Sun May 13, 2007 7:50 pm

TMR wrote:
emkay wrote:Well without Interlace the Atari can do more colours per line than the C64 has at 160 pixel width.

http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.ph ... t&id=19535

This picture shows up to 14 colours per scanline without interlace.
i'm assuming these two statements follow on... in which case, the C64 and CPC both do 16 colours per scanline (so it's not more on the Atari) and the Plus/4 does over eighty.
Plus/4 have powerful graphics, but not other features. It was a dead computer without software, and I think that is the main reason why cant be considered in a poll like this.

The Enterprise 128 is the best 8bit computer, high resolution, plenty of colors, excellent sound, a pity it hasn't the adequate impact in his time.

It's hard to tell what computer is best (there are a lot of factors). But, i'm sure of something, a Spectrum 48 can't be qualified as a possible best 8bit computer of all times.
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Allas
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Post by Allas » Sun May 13, 2007 9:01 pm

Here you can view a little amount of Atari in-game screenshots...

http://www.limitevisual.com/atari.htm
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oswald
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Post by oswald » Mon May 14, 2007 1:43 am

emkay wrote: Having a look at the full A8's capabilities, 3D worlds are possible from scratch...
The Antic, with its modes, makes it possible to have very fast 3D.
The Lucasfilm Games were only a pointer toward what is possible.
If the C64 wasn't the main computer of the 80's , possibliy, the coding optimization of the A8 would have been the main goal.
To make it short: If the A8 was the main machine in the 80's the 3D era wouldn't have started in the late 90's.... it would have started in the 70's....
I do strongly disagree here. First when it comes to 3d it has little to do with the gfx chip, I can see not a single advantage of antic in this field over c64 or spectrum or anything that comes. When it comes to 3d its about sheer cpu power, and in that I think the speccy is the best. Also even so I think both speccy and A8 was too weak for 3d stuff other than elite / fractalus/eidolon... I've seen the eidolon a8 on youtube, and it was clearly faster than c64 however still far from a fast fully playable 3d world (4-6fps?)

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Allas
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Post by Allas » Mon May 14, 2007 2:18 am

6502 2Mhz and Z80 4Mhz are the faster cpus of the 8-bit world. 2Mhz with CMOS tech means similar than 4Mhz Zilog tech.

As I see, with Antic Atari you can save memory for 3D programs. Not always we waste 8K per 320x200 screen. We can configure low modes at 4K, or even save more memory if include portions of screen as panel controls.

Antic could mix different text and graphics modes that use different amount of bytes per line. Maybe a example of this could be Mercenary.

Other example is Alternate Reality 3d world, show how the Antic could really help the programmers to optimize the resources of the computer.
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emkay
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Post by emkay » Mon May 14, 2007 2:30 am

oswald wrote:... I've seen the eidolon a8 on youtube, and it was clearly faster than c64 however still far from a fast fully playable 3d world (4-6fps?)
Actually. Games like the Eidolon take use of linear graphics modes. But Antic also has several Character modes that can speed up things several times compared to linear graphics modes.
For some imagination:
The PM Graphics can easliy be handled to give the basic screen architecture. This can be overlayed with different sized charmodes....

And, ofcourse.... an 8 bit is not fast enough for creating real 3D games. But you can make it look real, with real 3d basics also.

oswald
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Post by oswald » Mon May 14, 2007 2:43 am

Frobenius wrote:reply to oswald:

....
well I have run through the specs of the pokey, sorry but it did not mention the undocumented feats. However I've seen a few atari demos and its clear that the ADSR and FILTERS are missing a lot. You can set channel volumes by hand, but if you'd want to do it on a quality the sid does you'd couldnt match even with fiddling the volume regs with the cpu all the time, also loosing all cpu power... there's huge difference in sound quality when setting adsr on each cycle or setting it on every frame. Maybe try to listen to pokey and sid and compare the quality of the instruments, the difference is HUGE.


best sid instruments thread on csdb:

http://noname.c64.org/csdb/forums/?room ... 0934#41465

sidplay to play the tunes:

http://www.gsldata.se/c64/spw/

sidfind to find the ones without link:

www.c64.org/sidfind/

Also I have never heard any waveform other than squares / noise. Atleast it sounded like that to me...

"Anyway, SID is not just 'FAR' better than Pokey, just a little bit"

please do your homework and look up all the tunes in the topic I have posted, and you'll understand how 'FAR' better instruments the sid can do.


about numen, we would have to ask the authors how much, and how the extra ram is used.

"Thus, Numen doesn't rely on 320 kb of workspace memory"

it does doesnt it ? imagine how it would look and sound (:) if it would use stock 64kb... (pauses, no/weak music when loading) for example we made a remake of Desert Dream for c64, and guess what we have to load even when displaying effects to keep up the pace with the original thus loosing speed. Certainly it would have been much easyer and effects _faster_ (no need to trade speed for loading) with 320kb ram, however while the atari users feel their machine is weak and needs ram upgrades to make something outstanding, c64 coders can live and code outstanding stuff on the stock machine :)


new modes: how does exactly these 9 / 11 / 23 color modes work, and in what resolution / limitations etc ?

Mayhem in m.l. : it does already use VSP, but with another VIC trick its possible to scroll the screen up down aswell. There's a game (with 3 sequels) which does HW scroll in all directions while using the 160x200 grpahic mode of the 64 scrolling at 50fps. Thats better what mayhem can do both scrolling wise, and gfx wise (the levels are still uglyer than mayhem but thats due to weaker gfx artist) check fred's back on lemon64.com to see it.


"No, also Hi-Res (320*200 and >16 colors) pictures are no problem: look at the picture (#2) "

I dont see more than 16 colors on one scanline, and thats we're talking about. its not possible to make nice pictures with 4 colors / line and changing colors on each scanline these pictures show it.

320x200 with 16 colors should look like this:

the screenshot is cheating only a smaller area is visible at once:
Image
Image

limited area, but huge color density:
Image

160x200 laced to 320x200, also the screenshot is cheating as only about 160 lines is visible at once in the demo and its scrolling up/down at 50fps:

Image

Celdrahil
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Post by Celdrahil » Mon May 14, 2007 3:18 am

My vote the Atari 8Bit...

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Dudley
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Post by Dudley » Mon May 14, 2007 3:44 am

emkay wrote: This thread originally is about the best 8 Bit Game Computer, right?
So , clearly, it is the C64. Why? It simply has the best game database available.
This is the true fact!
No, that is opinion.
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http://yesterzine.co.uk | @Yesterzine on Twitter | yesterzineshow@gmail.com

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Post by Bub&Bob » Mon May 14, 2007 4:02 am

Dudley wrote:
emkay wrote: This thread originally is about the best 8 Bit Game Computer, right?
So , clearly, it is the C64. Why? It simply has the best game database available.
This is the true fact!
No, that is opinion.
Dud, leave it - let him draw his pretty pictures and waste his time repeating himself over & over.
The dry fart for Barry MacDermot and all the cancer patients in the Glamorgan testicle ward

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TMR
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Post by TMR » Mon May 14, 2007 4:54 am

Bub&Bob wrote:
Dudley wrote:
emkay wrote: This thread originally is about the best 8 Bit Game Computer, right?
So , clearly, it is the C64. Why? It simply has the best game database available.
This is the true fact!
No, that is opinion.
Dud, leave it - let him draw his pretty pictures and waste his time repeating himself over & over.
You seem to be getting confused; Emkay isn't part of the C64 camp, he's an Atari fanboy...

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