Atari vs C64 // was: 8-Bit Computer Poll

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Best 8-Bit

ZX Spectrum
109
41%
Commodore 64
121
46%
Amstrad CPC 464
25
10%
BBC Micro
8
3%
 
Total votes: 263

oswald
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Post by oswald » Fri May 04, 2007 9:44 am

Matt_B wrote:
oswald wrote:oh missed this one amongst the lines, okay now show us what pictures can you do with your machines :lol:
Here are some CPC ones I had lying around:
nice ones indeed. too bad the 2nd one only has like 2-4 colors max on each lines, the 3rd one is interlaced but the flickering is hidden by the faked screenshot. the first one is fine.

btw when you are in 16 color mode dont you loose all cpu power ? :P :)

oswald
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Post by oswald » Fri May 04, 2007 9:49 am

Bub&Bob wrote:
oswald wrote:
Bub&Bob wrote:
"This poll (IMO) is about the whole experience not the technical capabilities or the sales volumes. "

"You can't really even compare the same game across all formats as the programer quality may not be related to the hardware."
1. this poll only asks for the best 8 bit machine ever, and not for the whole experience.

2. I am not a gamer I'm coding demos on the 64, and I'm comparing from the hardware viewpoint, there's no point in comparing the games as that even depends a lot on how good they were written, frankly 95% of the c64 games could be done atleast twice as good.

1. Pointless poll then.
2. This is a retro GAMER forum? Am not suggesting, therefore, that you opinion is not valid but this is about games. It a poll for a games magazine, not tech demos.
the questions says "best 8bit computer?" I'm playing according that :) or is there a forum rule that all arguments must respect that this is a gaming site?

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RocketRanger
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Post by RocketRanger » Fri May 04, 2007 9:53 am

Yes.

I personally like the Machine X, it had more Hammilidytes than the other machines and could produce higher quad-pixies on a quextro-plane. The inbuilt tape recorder could be reverse engineered to play a certain Duran-Duran tape on double speed which could then be loaded into the Z80 mega memory which resulted in a secret Dizzy game. Also the Machine X had a fine version of "John Major loves cricket".

I didn't like the Machine Y, based on heresy and my experience on emulators (which give me the COMPLETE experience of owning one and therefore make me a complete AUTHORITY on it) it is clearly not as good as computers I have seen since (such as the Playstation 3) and therefore I am unable to crow-bar my current experiences of a thirty year old machine retrospectively into my previous experiences. However I am able to comment retrospectively here, in a negative fashion, in order to defend my love of Machine X so that I do not begin to feel that I was, indeed, wrong after all these years as I can often feel the wounds of many playground fights on a cold day.

I also don't like 'Machine Z', however I give it the benefit of the doubt in order to portray an image of open mindedness and distance. This will strengthen my footing when arguing that 'Machine X' is the best. I therefore give examples of Game A, Game B and Game C which are very good on 'Machine Z' even though I have always been a 'Machine X' person.

Thank you

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Matt_B
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Post by Matt_B » Fri May 04, 2007 9:54 am

oswald wrote:btw when you are in 16 color mode dont you loose all cpu power ? :P :)
No. Whatever gave you that idea?

The CPC has far more CPU power in all graphics modes than the C64, that's for sure.

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dr_bob
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Post by dr_bob » Fri May 04, 2007 9:59 am

Darran@Retro Gamer wrote:
neuromancer wrote:There must be a fault with my browser - I can't see any of the 8-bit Atari machines listed at all. Is anyone else experiencing this bizarre rendering fault?
Keeping it simple mate. I know there are more than 4 8-bit computers, but I just went with these core four.
yeah but the core four are Speccy , Commodore, Amstrad, and Atari ..FACT!
Last edited by dr_bob on Fri May 04, 2007 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

Bub&Bob
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Post by Bub&Bob » Fri May 04, 2007 10:02 am

oswald wrote:
Bub&Bob wrote:
oswald wrote: 1. this poll only asks for the best 8 bit machine ever, and not for the whole experience.

2. I am not a gamer I'm coding demos on the 64, and I'm comparing from the hardware viewpoint, there's no point in comparing the games as that even depends a lot on how good they were written, frankly 95% of the c64 games could be done atleast twice as good.

1. Pointless poll then.
2. This is a retro GAMER forum? Am not suggesting, therefore, that you opinion is not valid but this is about games. It a poll for a games magazine, not tech demos.
the questions says "best 8bit computer?" I'm playing according that :) or is there a forum rule that all arguments must respect that this is a gaming site?
No rule - I assume this poll relates to the gaming experience as this is a forum for the retro gamer magazine. Not sure Darran would bother putting up a poll for best technical machine as the stats answer this question. Perhaps, im wrong.......
The dry fart for Barry MacDermot and all the cancer patients in the Glamorgan testicle ward

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Emperor Fossil
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Post by Emperor Fossil » Fri May 04, 2007 10:09 am

RocketRanger wrote:I didn't like the Machine Y, based on heresy and my experience on emulators (which give me the COMPLETE experience of owning one and therefore make me a complete AUTHORITY on it)
All pisstaking aside, emulators aren't a bad way to get a feel for capabilities of varying platforms, unless you're using a complete crap-box of a PC.
Matt_B wrote:The BBC Micro was based around the same chip (the Motorola 6845) and had a similar history of jerky scrollers for a while but eventually came up trumps too. Here's a video of Firetrack in action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bxdd2_qrpg

Edit: The video doesn't really do it justice, as the frame rate is too low but it should give you a rough idea.
Yeah, that's the trouble with youtube. Nice shadows in that game, btw.

oswald
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Post by oswald » Fri May 04, 2007 10:11 am

Matt_B wrote:
oswald wrote:btw when you are in 16 color mode dont you loose all cpu power ? :P :)
No. Whatever gave you that idea?

The CPC has far more CPU power in all graphics modes than the C64, that's for sure.[/quot]

so the video chip does not steal extra cycles when it comes to more colors? a z80 at 3.3 MHz doesnt sound much faster than a 6510 at 1mhz. :P Especially when you lack charmode for moving level data fast.

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dr_bob
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Post by dr_bob » Fri May 04, 2007 10:12 am

Anyway isnt doing a which "8bit was best" (which for you UK lot means c64 vs speccy anyway) on a retro gaming board a bit like asking "which religion really got it right eh?" on a comparative religion board (if such a thing existed).I mean you're asking for a holy war right there!



also :Atari 8bit rules! ,
followed by the C64.
That is all.

Bub&Bob
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Post by Bub&Bob » Fri May 04, 2007 10:24 am

dr_bob wrote:Anyway isnt doing a which "8bit was best" (which for you UK lot means c64 vs speccy anyway) on a retro gaming board a bit like asking "which religion really got it right eh?" on a comparative religion board (if such a thing existed).I mean you're asking for a holy war right there!



also :Atari 8bit rules! ,
followed by the C64.
That is all.
Dont let's start this one again....... :wink:
The dry fart for Barry MacDermot and all the cancer patients in the Glamorgan testicle ward

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Matt_B
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Post by Matt_B » Fri May 04, 2007 10:25 am

oswald wrote:so the video chip does not steal extra cycles when it comes to more colors? a z80 at 3.3 MHz doesnt sound much faster than a 6510 at 1mhz. :P Especially when you lack charmode for moving level data fast.
No. The only cycles stolen on the CPC are so that instruction timings are bumped up to the nearest multiple of four to synchronize with the CTRC which otherwise accesses memory on alternate cycles. For example a LD A,(HL) takes 8 cycles instead of 7. This means that although the Z80 is clocked at 4MHz, it effectively runs at the same speed an uncontended 3.3MHz Z80 with a typical instruction mix. This is the same in all graphics modes, even non-standard overscanned and split screen ones.

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RocketRanger
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Post by RocketRanger » Fri May 04, 2007 10:32 am

Emperor Fossil wrote:
All pisstaking aside, emulators aren't a bad way to get a feel for capabilities of varying platforms, unless you're using a complete crap-box of a PC.
I somewhat disagree.

MESS emulates the Dragon 32 loading much-much faster than my Dixons tape-recorder did at the time. Also, when the game is loaded I can't plug my Dragonsoft analogue joystick in :-(

Then there's WinApe, the screen isn't the same size as my CPCs CRT monitor. My PC-Keyboard doesn't have those lovely arrow keys, and I used to pump the CPC's STEREO sound through a stereo amplifier back in the day - with enough BASE it made rainbow islands sound like an Arcade machine..kind of.

Vice fails to emulate the true horror of a C64 disk drive or turbo data cassette...and I do own these things and did own the later back in the day. Also there is no way you can understand how bad the C64 keyboard really is unless you owned one. Which I did, and it was a very bad thing indeed.

As for the Spectrum. Who knows where the Kempston bloody interface plugs in?

Bub&Bob
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Post by Bub&Bob » Fri May 04, 2007 10:35 am

Matt_B wrote:
oswald wrote:so the video chip does not steal extra cycles when it comes to more colors? a z80 at 3.3 MHz doesnt sound much faster than a 6510 at 1mhz. :P Especially when you lack charmode for moving level data fast.
No. The only cycles stolen on the CPC are so that instruction timings are bumped up to the nearest multiple of four to synchronize with the CTRC which otherwise accesses memory on alternate cycles. For example a LD A,(HL) takes 8 cycles instead of 7. This means that although the Z80 is clocked at 4MHz, it effectively runs at the same speed an uncontended 3.3MHz Z80 with a typical instruction mix. This is the same in all graphics modes, even non-standard overscanned and split screen ones.
Sorry but I have to say that all this technical stuff is boring the sh*te out of me. I'm off to play RIP on the Vic20.............
The dry fart for Barry MacDermot and all the cancer patients in the Glamorgan testicle ward

gury
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Post by gury » Fri May 04, 2007 10:38 am

oswald wrote: secondly matrix 2 movie intro is not impressive with 192k ram, maybe try some stuff on stock hardware. sadly the atari scene can only produce demos for expanded hardware like the speccy scene, while the 64ers are happy with the stock machine what does that show? the c64 has better hardware.
You are absolutely WRONG!!! Atari 8-bit scene has great library of impressive demos and intros, even for stock 64K and 130XE computers.

Check this out:
http://atari.fandal.cz/demos.php
http://gury.atari8.info/demos.htm

And check The Shrine demo, impressive work:
http://atari.fandal.cz/detail.php?files_id=5545

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Emperor Fossil
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Post by Emperor Fossil » Fri May 04, 2007 10:42 am

RocketRanger wrote:
Emperor Fossil wrote: All pisstaking aside, emulators aren't a bad way to get a feel for capabilities of varying platforms, unless you're using a complete crap-box of a PC.
I somewhat disagree.

MESS emulates the Dragon 32 loading much-much faster than my Dixons tape-recorder did at the time. Also, when the game is loaded I can't plug my Dragonsoft analogue joystick in :-(

Then there's WinApe, the screen isn't the same size as my CPCs CRT monitor. My PC-Keyboard doesn't have those lovely arrow keys, and I used to pump the CPC's STEREO sound through a stereo amplifier back in the day - with enough BASE it made rainbow islands sound like an Arcade machine..kind of.

Vice fails to emulate the true horror of a C64 disk drive or turbo data cassette...and I do own these things and did own the later back in the day. Also there is no way you can understand how bad the C64 keyboard really is unless you owned one. Which I did, and it was a very bad thing indeed.

As for the Spectrum. Who knows where the Kempston bloody interface plugs in?
Well, that's true enough about loading times. Emulators generally make loading times fly by, although you can turn on true drive emulation in vice if you're really keen. As far as the speccy goes, I don't seem to have much trouble with using the kempston thingy in Spin. Just make sure enable keystick is on.

For me, the biggest issue with emulators on PC is not being able to get a proper 50hz screen update. That's why I usually use vicex on the xbox for silky smooth 50hz scrolling.

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