Atari vs C64 // was: 8-Bit Computer Poll

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Best 8-Bit

ZX Spectrum
109
41%
Commodore 64
121
46%
Amstrad CPC 464
25
10%
BBC Micro
8
3%
 
Total votes: 263

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Matt_B
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Post by Matt_B » Fri May 04, 2007 8:56 am

@Oswald
Dare I say it but they're a bit, erm... brown. :lol:

If you want to get technical, both the BBC Micro and the Amstrad CPC were capable of much higher resolutions than you could get out of the C64: Up to 640x200/256 pixels in standard graphics modes and even more with overscan. They can also scroll at pixel precision with little CPU overhead, as seen in games like Firetrack (BBC) and Mission Genocide (CPC). The CPC also had a much broader colour palette of 27 colours (or 4096 on the plus models) compared to the C64's 16.

Anyway, the technical side doesn't really matter. It's what you do with it that counts. :)

Bub&Bob
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Post by Bub&Bob » Fri May 04, 2007 9:01 am

One school of though could be that if you compare the size of the box of the 48k spec to the C64 & AMS you have to be impressed that despite it looking and sounding sh*te (in comparisson) the gameplay is on a par if not better in some cases. All that, crammed into a little bit of plastic.

Going to wash my mouth out now with bleach....come on bread bin.
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RocketRanger
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Post by RocketRanger » Fri May 04, 2007 9:03 am

Well, we'll just have to see which user dies last. Then they can proclaim loudly that "Mine was best!" once and for all while demonstrating the winning machine on an emulator so powerful that it reproduces the original machines plastic covering, keyboard and smell of burning solder in mid-air to an audience of very bored looking great grand children.

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Sputryk
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Post by Sputryk » Fri May 04, 2007 9:04 am

andrew_rollings wrote:
Bub&Bob wrote: Have to agree - I voted for C64 cos it's my favourite (mainly down to childhood memories, recent emu and the fact that Paradroid in my fav game ever and is only on the C64) not because it sold the most.
Seriously... Try Quazatron on the Speccy... The scrolling is a little jerky, but I severely preferred that game to Paradroid.
Both of these blew Paradroid 90 away, in any case.

Andrew
I'm with you on that, Andrew. Quazzy is spectacular. Sure, the scrolling judders but, once you get into the game, you can filter out of your mind this problem. And it is a prime example of just how musical the Speccy could be. P'droid, as much as I do love the game, doesn't have any music (just great sounding effects) and loses out to the Speccy. P'Droid is the bigger game, though.

Ping Pong is another example of the Speccy's musical ability. And we mustn't forget that the humble Speccy can outperform the C64 (and not just from the sheer quality of the game (eg BombJack!)). I am not technically-minded but I do believe the Speccy can perform 3D isometric games better and, if memory serves me correctly (it is getting old!), there is something to do with colour and the way the Speccy 'thinks'.

Just because the Americans were ignorant and the UK marvel... :wink:

All-in-all, the Speccy wins though I will admit it is a very close-run thing with the C64. Umm..., what's a BBC? I thought it was a tv channel. :lol: And as for the C..., C..., ugh!, C..., THAT 1! :roll:

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Emperor Fossil
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Post by Emperor Fossil » Fri May 04, 2007 9:04 am

What is the deal with the CPC and scrolling? I've heard about it having some kind of smooth scroll capability, but just about every CPC game I've seen has jerky scrolling. Did it have some kind of hardware scroll feature that most programmer's didn't use or didn't know about?

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Matt_B
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Post by Matt_B » Fri May 04, 2007 9:10 am

Emperor Fossil wrote:What is the deal with the CPC and scrolling? I've heard about it having some kind of smooth scroll capability, but just about every CPC game I've seen has jerky scrolling. Did it have some kind of hardware scroll feature that most programmer's didn't use or didn't know about?
It supported a quick and dirty hardware scroll that was designed for text graphics, so that's what most of the early games used as it was programmed into the operating system and documented in the firmware. To get a smooth hardware scroll required getting the CRTC to operate in a non-standard way, and this wasn't really cracked until the machine had been on the market for a couple of years. A lot of people who've just seen the jerky scroll don't really appreciate what the machine could really manage.

The BBC Micro was based around the same chip (the Motorola 6845) and had a similar history of jerky scrollers for a while but eventually came up trumps too. Here's a video of Firetrack in action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bxdd2_qrpg

Edit: The video doesn't really do it justice, as the frame rate is too low but it should give you a rough idea.
Last edited by Matt_B on Fri May 04, 2007 9:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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smila
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Post by smila » Fri May 04, 2007 9:14 am

Sputryk wrote:
andrew_rollings wrote:
Bub&Bob wrote: Have to agree - I voted for C64 cos it's my favourite (mainly down to childhood memories, recent emu and the fact that Paradroid in my fav game ever and is only on the C64) not because it sold the most.
Seriously... Try Quazatron on the Speccy... The scrolling is a little jerky, but I severely preferred that game to Paradroid.
Both of these blew Paradroid 90 away, in any case.

Andrew
I'm with you on that, Andrew. Quazzy is spectacular. Sure, the scrolling judders but, once you get into the game, you can filter out of your mind this problem. And it is a prime example of just how musical the Speccy could be. P'droid, as much as I do love the game, doesn't have any music (just great sounding effects) and loses out to the Speccy. P'Droid is the bigger game, though.

Ping Pong is another example of the Speccy's musical ability. And we mustn't forget that the humble Speccy can outperform the C64 (and not just from the sheer quality of the game (eg BombJack!)). I am not technically-minded but I do believe the Speccy can perform 3D isometric games better and, if memory serves me correctly (it is getting old!), there is something to do with colour and the way the Speccy 'thinks'.

Just because the Americans were ignorant and the UK marvel... :wink:

All-in-all, the Speccy wins though I will admit it is a very close-run thing with the C64. Umm..., what's a BBC? I thought it was a tv channel. :lol: And as for the C..., C..., ugh!, C..., THAT 1! :roll:

Ive just given quazatron a bash after reading the good things wrote about it.
Although it isnt bad it aint a patch on paradroid, it might look nicer but gamplay wise its way behind.
All personal opions ofcourse.
Ive tried a fair few speccy games to try and really get into them but i just cant, It always feels like the games are held together with sticky tape and any moment they will fall to pieces.
Its like it was made by someone who tried to get us all to drive to work in an egg with wheels. :lol:

Let the never concluding battle continue.
Last edited by smila on Fri May 04, 2007 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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oswald
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Post by oswald » Fri May 04, 2007 9:17 am

Matt_B wrote:@Oswald
If you want to get technical, both the BBC Micro and the Amstrad CPC were capable of much higher resolutions than you could get out of the C64: Up to 640x200/256 pixels in standard graphics modes and even more with overscan.
640x256 in 2 color right? :lol: I'm really waiting for some example pictures of those machines :) I'm especially keen on how good 640x256 2 color pix looks like:D

oswald
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Post by oswald » Fri May 04, 2007 9:19 am

Matt_B wrote: Anyway, the technical side doesn't really matter. It's what you do with it that counts. :)
oh missed this one amongst the lines, okay now show us what pictures can you do with your machines :lol:

oswald
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Post by oswald » Fri May 04, 2007 9:27 am

Bub&Bob wrote:
"This poll (IMO) is about the whole experience not the technical capabilities or the sales volumes. "

"You can't really even compare the same game across all formats as the programer quality may not be related to the hardware."
1. this poll only asks for the best 8 bit machine ever, and not for the whole experience.

2. I am not a gamer I'm coding demos on the 64, and I'm comparing from the hardware viewpoint, there's no point in comparing the games as that even depends a lot on how good they were written, frankly 95% of the c64 games could be done atleast twice as good.

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Post by gury » Fri May 04, 2007 9:34 am

It's a shame the poll list is so conservative. There are much more good retro machines out there like Atari 8-bit, MSX / MSX2, Enterprise, Coco and every others I forgot.

Atari 8-bit could compete easily and be at the top... custom chips for graphics (DL, 256 colors...), sound (POKEY), player/missiles, fast processor... the machine which can be put to use even today.

I could show you many things possible with the machine, like Matrix 2 movie intro in GTIA mode :) and ... here are some examples of pictures:

http://g2f.atari8.info/gallery.html

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Matt_B
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Post by Matt_B » Fri May 04, 2007 9:35 am

oswald wrote:oh missed this one amongst the lines, okay now show us what pictures can you do with your machines :lol:
Here are some CPC ones I had lying around:

Image

Image

Image

oswald
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Post by oswald » Fri May 04, 2007 9:36 am

Matt_B wrote:
Emperor Fossil wrote:What is the deal with the CPC and scrolling? I've heard about it having some kind of smooth scroll capability, but just about every CPC game I've seen has jerky scrolling. Did it have some kind of hardware scroll feature that most programmer's didn't use or didn't know about?
It supported a quick and dirty hardware scroll that was designed for text graphics, so that's what most of the early games used as it was programmed into the operating system and documented in the firmware. To get a smooth hardware scroll required getting the CRTC to operate in a non-standard way, and this wasn't really cracked until the machine had been on the market for a couple of years. A lot of people who've just seen the jerky scroll don't really appreciate what the machine could really manage.

The BBC Micro was based around the same chip (the Motorola 6845) and had a similar history of jerky scrollers for a while but eventually came up trumps too. Here's a video of Firetrack in action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bxdd2_qrpg

Edit: The video doesn't really do it justice, as the frame rate is too low but it should give you a rough idea.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDmADtsaRHw

check this random vid from youtube to show you how much more a c64 could do at shot em ups than the beeb

oswald
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Post by oswald » Fri May 04, 2007 9:40 am

gury wrote:It's a shame the poll list is so conservative. There are much more good retro machines out there like Atari 8-bit, MSX / MSX2, Enterprise, Coco and every others I forgot.

Atari 8-bit could compete easily and be at the top... custom chips for graphics (DL, 256 colors...), sound (POKEY), player/missiles, fast processor... the machine which can be put to use even today.

I could show you many things possible with the machine, like Matrix 2 movie intro in GTIA mode :) and ... here are some examples of pictures:

http://g2f.atari8.info/gallery.html
atari has the same problem, it can only display a lot of colors in LOW resolutions. so eventho it has 256 colors you can hardly display them other than lowering the resolution badly or changing palette on each line which still leaves you with a few colors / line.

secondly matrix 2 movie intro is not impressive with 192k ram, maybe try some stuff on stock hardware. sadly the atari scene can only produce demos for expanded hardware like the speccy scene, while the 64ers are happy with the stock machine what does that show? the c64 has better hardware.

Bub&Bob
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Post by Bub&Bob » Fri May 04, 2007 9:43 am

oswald wrote:
Bub&Bob wrote:
"This poll (IMO) is about the whole experience not the technical capabilities or the sales volumes. "

"You can't really even compare the same game across all formats as the programer quality may not be related to the hardware."
1. this poll only asks for the best 8 bit machine ever, and not for the whole experience.

2. I am not a gamer I'm coding demos on the 64, and I'm comparing from the hardware viewpoint, there's no point in comparing the games as that even depends a lot on how good they were written, frankly 95% of the c64 games could be done atleast twice as good.

1. Pointless poll then.
2. This is a retro GAMER forum? Am not suggesting, therefore, that you opinion is not valid but this is about games. It a poll for a games magazine, not tech demos.
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