No more TxK

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Tabe
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Re: No more TxK

Post by Tabe » Mon Mar 23, 2015 3:43 am

Matt_B wrote:Interestingly, it looks like Atari let the Tempest 2000 trademark lapse, so Jeff might have a case if he's prepared to be dragged through the courts. That said, I wouldn't blame him for folding; it'd be a massive distraction and could cost him very dearly if he wasn't ultimately successful.

Ah well, best for him to stick to rehashing the games he wholly owns in future, I suppose.
The trademark lapsing means nothing. This is a copyright infringement case - not a trademark case - and Atari is on REALLY strong ground there.

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Re: No more TxK

Post by Matt_B » Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:31 am

Tabe wrote:
Matt_B wrote:Interestingly, it looks like Atari let the Tempest 2000 trademark lapse, so Jeff might have a case if he's prepared to be dragged through the courts. That said, I wouldn't blame him for folding; it'd be a massive distraction and could cost him very dearly if he wasn't ultimately successful.

Ah well, best for him to stick to rehashing the games he wholly owns in future, I suppose.
The trademark lapsing means nothing. This is a copyright infringement case - not a trademark case - and Atari is on REALLY strong ground there.
I don't know about that, they tried it in the 80s and lost when it was taken to court:

http://www.patentarcade.com/2005/04/cas ... -d-md.html

And I'd think that Minter has a good case for saying that he's not using any copyrightable assets from prior Tempest games, just the ideas.

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Re: No more TxK

Post by slacey1070 » Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:12 am

Good to see it may not be as black and white as dome have put on here.

although I doubt Jeff will fight it because his pockets won't be as deep as ataris. .. pity really.
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Re: No more TxK

Post by Tabe » Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:40 pm

Matt_B wrote:
Tabe wrote:
Matt_B wrote:Interestingly, it looks like Atari let the Tempest 2000 trademark lapse, so Jeff might have a case if he's prepared to be dragged through the courts. That said, I wouldn't blame him for folding; it'd be a massive distraction and could cost him very dearly if he wasn't ultimately successful.

Ah well, best for him to stick to rehashing the games he wholly owns in future, I suppose.
The trademark lapsing means nothing. This is a copyright infringement case - not a trademark case - and Atari is on REALLY strong ground there.
I don't know about that, they tried it in the 80s and lost when it was taken to court:

http://www.patentarcade.com/2005/04/cas ... -d-md.html

And I'd think that Minter has a good case for saying that he's not using any copyrightable assets from prior Tempest games, just the ideas.
He's using an identical copy of the claw/ship from the Tempest games as well as identical copies of multiple levels. Those are copyrightable expressions and he made identical copies of them.

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Re: No more TxK

Post by Matt_B » Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:26 pm

Tabe wrote:
Matt_B wrote:I don't know about that, they tried it in the 80s and lost when it was taken to court:

http://www.patentarcade.com/2005/04/cas ... -d-md.html

And I'd think that Minter has a good case for saying that he's not using any copyrightable assets from prior Tempest games, just the ideas.
He's using an identical copy of the claw/ship from the Tempest games as well as identical copies of multiple levels. Those are copyrightable expressions and he made identical copies of them.
I don't think there's a problem with copying levels. There's only really one level to Asteroids, and Meteors substantially copies it and hence the entire game, yet Atari still lost the case. The rule of thumb seems to be that you can copy gameplay as much as you like; and a good thing too, otherwise the industry as we know it would be blighted.

As for the claw ship, it's debatable as to whether a drawing of just eight lines is substantial enough to be a copyrightable asset, especially so when its precise shape is determined by the geometry of the level. It also looks noticeably different in TxK to the original, which is just an outline, and T2K, which is a solid shape, so it's far from identical.

I really think Minter could win here; he's just not got the time and money to drag it through the courts, which is a shame.

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Re: No more TxK

Post by killbot » Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:39 pm

The lesson, obviously, is if you're making a sequel to a game you don't have the rights to, hide it better. A good start is not to make it look identical, give it an obviously similar name or talk in interviews about it being a sequel. Follow these three simple rules and you'll probably get away with it!

Like most here I'm naturally on the side of Minter but he's so obviously ridden roughshod over Atari's copyright that they have to take action or else set a dangerous precedent.
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Re: No more TxK

Post by RodimusPrime » Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:59 pm

killbot wrote:The lesson, obviously, is if you're making a sequel to a game you don't have the rights to, hide it better. A good start is not to make it look identical, give it an obviously similar name or talk in interviews about it being a sequel. Follow these three simple rules and you'll probably get away with it!

Like most here I'm naturally on the side of Minter but he's so obviously ridden roughshod over Atari's copyright that they have to take action or else set a dangerous precedent.

This. Minter has basically pushed it to a point where Atari is in a position where thy gave to do something.

I love how people are saying " Atari have to prove the game is similar " and blatently ignoring the Fact that Minter himself has consistently brought attention to that very fact and even used it as a marketing tool.

Some dumbasses are saying that if Minter decides to fight it he has a good chance to win, NO, just no. All they have to do is show videos of the 2 games and then as soon as transcripts of some of his many interviews are read out he is screwed.

When you go to court to say that this game is not the same as that game, and then the opposition reads out pages worth of interviews of you saying, yes this is a sequel to that game, it is the Tempest game I always wanted to make, and reference the game by name you have screwed yourself over.

Atari dont have to prove censored, Minter described TxK as " the Tempest game he always wanted to make "

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Re: No more TxK

Post by Matt_B » Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:31 pm

RodimusPrime wrote:This. Minter has basically pushed it to a point where Atari is in a position where thy gave to do something.

I love how people are saying " Atari have to prove the game is similar " and blatently ignoring the Fact that Minter himself has consistently brought attention to that very fact and even used it as a marketing tool.

Some dumbasses are saying that if Minter decides to fight it he has a good chance to win, NO, just no. All they have to do is show videos of the 2 games and then as soon as transcripts of some of his many interviews are read out he is screwed.

When you go to court to say that this game is not the same as that game, and then the opposition reads out pages worth of interviews of you saying, yes this is a sequel to that game, it is the Tempest game I always wanted to make, and reference the game by name you have screwed yourself over.

Atari dont have to prove censored, Minter described TxK as " the Tempest game he always wanted to make "
Nobody is saying that Atari have to prove the game is similar. What they have to prove is that Minter has used copyrightable assets. These would be things such as source code, graphics, and music. By his own account, he's used none of those; rather he's re-written the game from scratch, made brand new vector models of everything, and commissioned a new soundtrack.

And what he's said about TxK being based on Tempest is of no import at all. Things like game mechanics and graphical styles aren't copyrightable; in the few cases that have gone to court on such matters, it's gone the way of the defendant. The appearance of the game might be similar, but that's not a matter of copyright; they could perhaps claim that he was infringing their trademark on T2K, but they let that lapse and only retain the ones for the original Tempest, to which TxK is obviously a very distant relative.

Anyway, I suppose Atari are going to go after World of Tanks next for infringing their copyright on Battlezone. :wink:

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Re: No more TxK

Post by RodimusPrime » Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:26 am

Matt_B wrote:
RodimusPrime wrote:This. Minter has basically pushed it to a point where Atari is in a position where thy gave to do something.

I love how people are saying " Atari have to prove the game is similar " and blatently ignoring the Fact that Minter himself has consistently brought attention to that very fact and even used it as a marketing tool.

Some dumbasses are saying that if Minter decides to fight it he has a good chance to win, NO, just no. All they have to do is show videos of the 2 games and then as soon as transcripts of some of his many interviews are read out he is screwed.

When you go to court to say that this game is not the same as that game, and then the opposition reads out pages worth of interviews of you saying, yes this is a sequel to that game, it is the Tempest game I always wanted to make, and reference the game by name you have screwed yourself over.

Atari dont have to prove censored, Minter described TxK as " the Tempest game he always wanted to make "
Nobody is saying that Atari have to prove the game is similar. What they have to prove is that Minter has used copyrightable assets. These would be things such as source code, graphics, and music. By his own account, he's used none of those; rather he's re-written the game from scratch, made brand new vector models of everything, and commissioned a new soundtrack.

And what he's said about TxK being based on Tempest is of no import at all. Things like game mechanics and graphical styles aren't copyrightable; in the few cases that have gone to court on such matters, it's gone the way of the defendant. The appearance of the game might be similar, but that's not a matter of copyright; they could perhaps claim that he was infringing their trademark on T2K, but they let that lapse and only retain the ones for the original Tempest, to which TxK is obviously a very distant relative.

Anyway, I suppose Atari are going to go after World of Tanks next for infringing their copyright on Battlezone. :wink:
Pathetic. We all know that TxK is a tempest game, and we all know what he has done.

If a Big company had done this we would all be talking about how disgusting it is. World of tanks + battlezone, thats such a stupid thing to say. You know when peole know they are wrong when they try and use stupid comparisons like that.

You are all supporting someone whi is blatently ripping someone else off, it seems though that just because its one guy doing it to a big company its ok.

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Re: No more TxK

Post by RodimusPrime » Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:30 am

Let me ask all those supporting Minter here.

If I released a game called Super mario cousins, used a main character that was basically identical to Mario, used the same graphical style and Font, then went into interviews saying That I believed this is a true successor to Mario and this was always the Mario game I wanted to make.

Would you all be supporting me, do you think I would get away with it. No of course not.

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Re: No more TxK

Post by Matt_B » Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:15 am

RodimusPrime wrote:Let me ask all those supporting Minter here.

If I released a game called Super mario cousins, used a main character that was basically identical to Mario, used the same graphical style and Font, then went into interviews saying That I believed this is a true successor to Mario and this was always the Mario game I wanted to make.

Would you all be supporting me, do you think I would get away with it. No of course not.
The difference is that you could not possibly do that without infringing Nintendo trademarks. Unlike with Tempest 2000, the name, characters and font are protected.

That said, you could still make a game that plays similarly to Super Mario Bros with your own graphics, music and code. See Secret Maryo Chronicles for an obvious example of where that has already happened.

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Re: No more TxK

Post by slacey1070 » Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:33 am

Matt_B wrote:
RodimusPrime wrote:Let me ask all those supporting Minter here.

If I released a game called Super mario cousins, used a main character that was basically identical to Mario, used the same graphical style and Font, then went into interviews saying That I believed this is a true successor to Mario and this was always the Mario game I wanted to make.

Would you all be supporting me, do you think I would get away with it. No of course not.
The difference is that you could not possibly do that without infringing Nintendo trademarks. Unlike with Tempest 2000, the name, characters and font are protected.

That said, you could still make a game that plays similarly to Super Mario Bros with your own graphics, music and code. See Secret Maryo Chronicles for an obvious example of where that has already happened.
this. This is just the outcome of a holding investment company buying a brand.

The atari defence on here is amazing.

go Jeff. ..
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Re: No more TxK

Post by the_hawk » Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:58 am

RodimusPrime wrote:Let me ask all those supporting Minter here.

If I released a game called Super mario cousins, used a main character that was basically identical to Mario, used the same graphical style and Font, then went into interviews saying That I believed this is a true successor to Mario and this was always the Mario game I wanted to make.

Would you all be supporting me, do you think I would get away with it. No of course not.
It's irrelevant, it's a completely different situation. I've never understood the "yeah but what if" straw man arguments people come out with when there's a debate about something, stick to the case in point or not at all.

"Pseudo-Atari"'s claim is both legally dubious (as has been pointed out by Matt_B) and morally wrong. If Jeff Minter had the resources to put together a decent legal team "Pseudo-Atari"'s case would be in tatters.
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Re: No more TxK

Post by RodimusPrime » Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:28 am

the_hawk wrote:
RodimusPrime wrote:Let me ask all those supporting Minter here.

If I released a game called Super mario cousins, used a main character that was basically identical to Mario, used the same graphical style and Font, then went into interviews saying That I believed this is a true successor to Mario and this was always the Mario game I wanted to make.

Would you all be supporting me, do you think I would get away with it. No of course not.
It's irrelevant, it's a completely different situation. I've never understood the "yeah but what if" straw man arguments people come out with when there's a debate about something, stick to the case in point or not at all.

"Pseudo-Atari"'s claim is both legally dubious (as has been pointed out by Matt_B) and morally wrong. If Jeff Minter had the resources to put together a decent legal team "Pseudo-Atari"'s case would be in tatters.

No, but whatever, no point arguing as we will not agree. I personally see Minter ripping off someone elses game, that is graphically the same, and plays the same, and is even titled in such a way to make a connection to Ataris IP.

Me, personally, I think he has dropped it because he knows he would not have a chance. He knew it was too similar thats why he approached Atari in the beginning.

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Re: No more TxK

Post by killbot » Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:52 am

I don't think anyone doubts that had Minter just made a generic Tempest clone and called it Super Elk or something we wouldn't be having this discussion and Atari would probably let it slide. But the identical graphics, suspiciously similar name, the interviews in which he freely admits it's a Tempest sequel... its like he's trying to intentionally provoke a response from Atari. Well, he has his response now. Hard to see how he's the victim.
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