sexism?

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DPrinny
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Re: sexism?

Post by DPrinny » Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:04 pm

Sel Feena wrote:I do wonder though, how a female equivalent of Bob or Rufus in a fighting game would be received
Fat princess got hated
sirpigmeat wrote: I saw her level a criticism against, i think it was, speedball... Where you get a harem of woman if you become champion or something... I think she kind of missed the point a bit... Speedball isn't supposed to be a good world, the games not trying to promote sexual slavery anymore than its saying we should have televised blood sports... Its the fictional world in the game that is incredibly violent and sexist, not the game itself.
Thing is with her (a part from the "Im not a gamer" thing) is she does a half arsed job with the resurching of things before hand

She went on about the lack of Nintendo Princesses getting games where they are the main character
both Peach and Zelda have had there own games, they snuck under the radar (mainly because Zeldas own games where a bit cack)
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Gordon Bennett
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Re: sexism?

Post by Gordon Bennett » Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:18 pm

Some games are sexist, yes. Just as some film, television, books, magazines and newspapers are. Our media reflects the society we live in. Here in the West, there has only been a widespread movement towards gender equality for about 50 years or so. Of course we have many aspects of sexism in our culture.

To be honest, insofar as sexism in games are concerned, I don't think the mainstream console games that are the usual target are the worst offenders. The worst, the most demeaning towards women by far that I have ever seen are games marketed towards girls. Among them are many that are incredibly shallow. The whole game is based around shopping, makeup, clothes, jewellery and fame. No depth, no intelligence, and no ambition at all besides looking pretty and being an object of attention for having done so. Or raising fluffy pets and babies. It's like playing Hello magazine.

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Re: sexism?

Post by psj3809 » Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:27 pm

I wish it would be easy to wipe out any racism or sexism.

I'm sure there are many teenage gamers (and probably older games) who are sexist as anything. Heard a lot of bad stories about female players getting bullied, couldnt believe it.

I know its not the same but if you want to wipe out sexism then it works both ways, remember that advert for diet coke with the muscle bound guy ? Theres other sexist adverts as well which are sexist towards blokes.

Same for racism. You get the MOBO's (music of black origin), why do we have to seperate it ? Same for american colleges who have 'black college' awards. Again why do we have to seperate it ? In american sports theres a 'Rooney rule' which means you have to interview a black candidate for the coaching job. I think thats totally wrong, if they're good it doesnt matter what colour they are, but sadly there is racism around, dont think the Rooney rule is the best (teams get round it by quickly interviewing some average black coach before they hire the big name coach they want (who granted is white)).

Disabled people shouldnt get through the first phase of interviews as they're disabled. Why dont i ever see a white bloke serving me in an indian restaurant ? I dont batter an eyelid the second an indian guy serves me in say a carvery etc. Lots of adverts seem to try to please everyone, its like a Benetton advert. I remember people moaning there wasnt a black person in Downton Abbey !

I like to think times are better and that Chelsea incident a few weeks back was just some idiots (rather than thousands).But others have said the people who try and find sexism in games when there simply isnt any just dont help the cause.

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slacey1070
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Re: sexism?

Post by slacey1070 » Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:42 pm

There would be no need for the Rooney rule is racism didn't exist - you only have to look at football, given how many black players there have been and see there are next to no black managers. I'm old enough to remember black players having bananas thrown at them during games - and sadly whilst things have improved in the UK, the same cant be said in the rest of Europe - and its not perfect here by any stretch.

When I was managing a side in a cup game a few years ago, I had a Bangladeshi lad playing for me - he was subjected to racist comments the whole game and was booked for telling one of the racists to pack it in.... I got very close to taking the side off the pitch.

As for Guaranteed Interviews - I have interview people using that scheme. Some of you clearly don't understand the scheme - why should you, if you haven't had to use it as a interviewee or employer? - however it isn't as its painted here. The candidate has to be able to do the job. Many of these candidates have had years of being refused interviews on the basis of their disability - not their skills and ability. These are people without the same opportunity as I am grateful to have. I have always given plenty of feedback to these candidates, because that helps them develop and hopefully gets them back into work and contributing to society in a way that gives them personal value.

I know I've gone off topic, however my Dad was put into a wheelchair as a result of a car accident and wasn't able to work since, mainly because employers saw only his disability and not his skills - God bless the 70s.
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DPrinny
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Re: sexism?

Post by DPrinny » Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:48 pm

Actually if we get rid of sexism and racism we might as well go the whole hog and get rid of religion as people uses that to hate as well
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Megamixer
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Re: sexism?

Post by Megamixer » Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:02 pm

Antiriad2097 wrote:
Megamixer wrote:I've also heard about disabled people being guaranteed to get through to the interview stage of certain job applications whereas non-disabled people still have to go through the sifting of applications. Obviously disabled people don't want to get looked down on (and rightly so) but equality comes into question when they have a clear advantage in the application process. This one's a bit trickier because the general idea is to protect disabled people from being automatically rejected based on disability but it does seem to contradict equality.
I presume you refer to the Guaranteed Interview scheme that is/was government backed.

These people still have to get through the application sifting process, since they must meet the minimum criteria for the job.

It just means they aren't sifted out if they have proved they are capable, so it's only making the shortlist for interview that is guaranteed after that process.

They still have to talk the talk at the interview and prove they're the best candidate. Since there are no longer quotas to be filled for having disabled employees, they still have a tough job, they have to convince someone that their disability will not impair their ability to do the job or cause undue problems for the employer.

It is positive discrimination, but its still not easy.
That's the one. I heard about it from somebody who used to work in the DWP but admittedly, they probably didn't impart the full story to me or just didn't know the ins-and-outs. Thanks for the info anyway.
slacey1070 wrote:As for Guaranteed Interviews - I have interview people using that scheme. Some of you clearly don't understand the scheme - why should you, if you haven't had to use it as a interviewee or employer? - however it isn't as its painted here. The candidate has to be able to do the job. Many of these candidates have had years of being refused interviews on the basis of their disability - not their skills and ability. These are people without the same opportunity as I am grateful to have. I have always given plenty of feedback to these candidates, because that helps them develop and hopefully gets them back into work and contributing to society in a way that gives them personal value.

I know I've gone off topic, however my Dad was put into a wheelchair as a result of a car accident and wasn't able to work since, mainly because employers saw only his disability and not his skills - God bless the 70s.
I apologise if I offended by bringing that up. As in my reply to Ant's post above, I doubt I was given the full story about how it works. It was just something that popped back into my head and I used it as a (poor) example. Anything that can bypass employer bias against disabled person is a good thing I agree.
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slacey1070
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Re: sexism?

Post by slacey1070 » Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:18 pm

No offence taken at all mate...
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Re: sexism?

Post by Antiriad2097 » Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:12 pm

Here's an interesting take on the issue that seems fair (i.e. I get to keep boobies in games).

http://thespectacularspider-girl.tumblr ... ideo-games
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Re: sexism?

Post by Megamixer » Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:36 pm

Antiriad2097 wrote:Here's an interesting take on the issue that seems fair (i.e. I get to keep boobies in games).

http://thespectacularspider-girl.tumblr ... ideo-games
That was a good, level-headed read with some sense in it. That picture near the end with 'redesigns' is abolutely awful.
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Sel Feena
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Re: sexism?

Post by Sel Feena » Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:58 am

That point about focusing on characters they don't like, when choice is available, felt pretty on point. Choice means having stuff you don't like as well, whether it's some themes, characters or entire games. Hatred is a case in point, looks like the worst kind of tryhard edgy simulator, but whatever. Plenty of other games out that do interest me.
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Re: sexism?

Post by flatapex » Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:52 am

There are two seperate questions:

1. Is there sexism in video games?

2. Is there more sexism in video games than other hobbies or areas of society?

Question one can be answered yes if there is one example, but could be countered by the game being completely fantastical and having equally unrealistic male or non human characters.

Question two I would say no there is not, the same views are expressed for example in motor racing (my other interest). usually by people that have no knowledge and only look at statistics
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DPrinny
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Re: sexism?

Post by DPrinny » Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:57 pm

^Watch any modern music channel (Muted if you value your ears) and you will see more flesh than Dead or alive beach volleyball
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Matt_B
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Re: sexism?

Post by Matt_B » Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:38 am

Some more lists of sexist games for your perusal:

http://www.ibtimes.com/after-gamergate- ... me-1704905
http://whatculture.com/gaming/10-blatan ... -games.php
http://www.therichest.com/rich-list/mos ... deo-games/

The first thing I'd note is how many of these games are Japanese. We all know they've got a different set of cultural norms to Western countries, and I'd think that to go piling in on them without taking that into account is borderline racist. That's not to say that you can handwave away any amount of sexism in a Japanese game by pointing at its origin, but in the case of the much maligned Catherine, a storyline that might appear as an indulgent sexual fantasy to a Western gamer is much more of a potent metaphor for the societal pressures on a young Japanese man. Also, anyone who can't get what Lollipop Chainsaw is satirizing just isn't cut out for games journalism.

GTA gets a few mentions and you've really got to wonder if those critical of it have actually played the games. So yes, they've got hookers in it and you can run them over, but you don't have to and really shouldn't if you're trying to complete them in an optimal fashion. Quite how you could make an open world game where it's simply impossible to make a misogynistic moral choice - short of not populating it with any women at all - is something that none of these people seem to be able to articulate.

Another common theme is that a lot of the sexism really boils down to lazy storytelling. So yes, there are sexist tropes in games, but there are far too many tropes in general; get the scriptwriters to avoid the latter problem and it'll sort out the former too. I suspect it's often the case that the writer will have little time, and be heavily constrained by the game mechanics - and that's definitely the right way round - but it's better to go light with the story than use a bad one. You don't need to be a radical feminist to want to skip a bad cut scene after all.

On the whole though, if they're the worst examples that anyone can come up with, I don't think video games has much to worry about at least in comparison to the rest of popular culture.

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DPrinny
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Re: sexism?

Post by DPrinny » Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:10 am

Matt_B wrote: GTA gets a few mentions and you've really got to wonder if those critical of it have actually played the games.
It seems most of the ones parping on about sexism in games dont play them, they just want people to give them attention, bit like that Jack thompson thing a few years ago
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