sexism?

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RodimusPrime
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Re: sexism?

Post by RodimusPrime » Mon Mar 02, 2015 3:55 pm

I find whenever there seems to be a femisism expert talking about games always, and I mean always reverts to the " gives young girls unrealistic expectations of what a women should look like "

That is what they use to prove sexism. My point has always been that the very same argument can be used for boys and Male game characters.

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killbot
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Re: sexism?

Post by killbot » Mon Mar 02, 2015 6:49 pm

markopoloman wrote:I play games because they are games. Couldn't give a toss about underlying bollocks regarding sexism or not enough female leads, gay characters, black, white, green, bald, bearded, transgender, lesbian, etc.etc.

I just want to play the game and enjoy it for what it is.
I hear that a lot but the problem is games don't exist in a cultural vacuum. You can't flirt with sexist or racist imagery then say 'Oh, it's just a game so it doesn't matter'. Any more than youcould in a novel or a movie.
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markopoloman
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Re: sexism?

Post by markopoloman » Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:20 pm

I suppose I just kind of differentiate games from film to a certain extent . A game is programmed and not real but a film is filmed with real people. But again, even with films there is the argument that it is not actually real.

As a white heterosexual male I suppose I don't really look at it the same way as a woman that thinks games are full of sexism or games don't have enough homosexual characters or not enough black or Asian characters... To me, a game is still a game. I don't go looking for things to get annoyed about - I play or watch to be entertained. Obviously, if there is a blatant attack on a minority then yeah, I'd raise an eyebrow and not watch or play that again.
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Analog
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Re: sexism?

Post by Analog » Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:42 pm

was anyone here tracking the stuff posted by anita sarkeesian? tbh I don't think she really has given feminists a good name, some of the stuff she comes out with, she finds sexism in games and parts of them where there is none. a lot of it is bullshit.

not saying that sexism doesn't exist but I would say after witnessing the backlash over gamergate that misogynistic and sexist attitudes tend to be more in some gamers minds rather than the actual games themselves.

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markopoloman
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Re: sexism?

Post by markopoloman » Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:53 pm

Analog wrote:was anyone here tracking the stuff posted by anita sarkeesian? tbh I don't think she really has given feminists a good name, some of the stuff she comes out with, she finds sexism in games and parts of them where there is none. a lot of it is bullshit.
I followed some of what she said but in the end just wanted her to jump under a fast moving train! Awful woman.
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Matt_B
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Re: sexism?

Post by Matt_B » Mon Mar 02, 2015 8:10 pm

I was very disappointed by Sarkeesian. Finding sexism in video games really ought to be like shooting fish in a barrel, but she really went out of her way to contrive examples of it in games where it wasn't really there. Games that actively promote extreme misogynistic violence - as opposed to those that'll let you beat the crap out of both sexes by characters of a gender of your choice - seem to be very thin on the ground, so she just seemed to want to make them up.

Rather, I think the games industry tends to be more sexist in a casual way, as you'd expect of an industry that's been largely men making games for other men for most of its history. Games lack a female perspective, because there's next to nobody in a position to put one in. It's willing to change, but only at a pace that market forces will permit; games that aren't politically correct but still sell will keep getting made, while ones that are but don't won't.

Anyway, I offer you Oppression Quest:

http://oppressionquest.com/

:D

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markopoloman
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Re: sexism?

Post by markopoloman » Mon Mar 02, 2015 8:48 pm

Well, that was exciting! I won Oppression Quest! :lol:
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The Laird
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Re: sexism?

Post by The Laird » Mon Mar 02, 2015 9:34 pm

markopoloman wrote:
Analog wrote:was anyone here tracking the stuff posted by anita sarkeesian? tbh I don't think she really has given feminists a good name, some of the stuff she comes out with, she finds sexism in games and parts of them where there is none. a lot of it is bullshit.
I followed some of what she said but in the end just wanted her to jump under a fast moving train! Awful woman.
Totally agree. While I don't agree with what a lot of people said to her, she really doesn't help herself by provoking people and generally being a total censored.

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junkmale
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Re: sexism?

Post by junkmale » Mon Mar 02, 2015 10:50 pm

A lot of the problem boils down to many many people not actually understanding what sexism actually means.
A scantily clad character in a video game (whether male or female) is NOT sexist.

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Re: sexism?

Post by DPrinny » Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:52 am

Analog wrote:was anyone here tracking the stuff posted by anita sarkeesian? tbh I don't think she really has given feminists a good name, some of the stuff she comes out with, she finds sexism in games and parts of them where there is none. a lot of it is bullshit.

not saying that sexism doesn't exist but I would say after witnessing the backlash over gamergate that misogynistic and sexist attitudes tend to be more in some gamers minds rather than the actual games themselves.
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Re: sexism?

Post by Antiriad2097 » Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:00 am

killbot wrote:
markopoloman wrote:I play games because they are games. Couldn't give a toss about underlying bollocks regarding sexism or not enough female leads, gay characters, black, white, green, bald, bearded, transgender, lesbian, etc.etc.

I just want to play the game and enjoy it for what it is.
I hear that a lot but the problem is games don't exist in a cultural vacuum. You can't flirt with sexist or racist imagery then say 'Oh, it's just a game so it doesn't matter'. Any more than youcould in a novel or a movie.
But there's absolutely masses of sexism and racism in novels and movies. And it doesn't matter.
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Re: sexism?

Post by Megamixer » Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:07 am

My stance...

A lot of these 'ism' things are completely ridiculous these days because surprise, surprise the people that use the term are either hypocrites or contradict themselves anyway. For example, I've known women at work who will bite your head off for making a 'sexist' comment or joke but the same women are happy to use their gender as a reason for why they didn't get a certain job done or can't move certain boxes etc. I'm not disputing physical capabilities at all but the way they would excuse themselves from the work is because "they are a woman, you can't expect me to do that"

Another example - slightly unrelated - is that black people have fought for years for equality and I think that's a good thing because racism is completely unnecessary. BUT you have events such as the 'Black Oscars'...if there was a 'White Oscars', wouldn't that be called racist?

I've also heard about disabled people being guaranteed to get through to the interview stage of certain job applications whereas non-disabled people still have to go through the sifting of applications. Obviously disabled people don't want to get looked down on (and rightly so) but equality comes into question when they have a clear advantage in the application process. This one's a bit trickier because the general idea is to protect disabled people from being automatically rejected based on disability but it does seem to contradict equality.

As for sexism in games...I think it's more just cynical marketing than anything. 'Sexism' is telling a woman that their opinion doesn't count because they are a woman or not allowing them to vote etc. Female characters in games with big boobs and flimsy attire is just titilation for a perceived male audience, not sexism. At the end of the day, 90% of game characters - female OR male - are designed with idealism in mind. Very rarely will you get to play as a protaganist without a perfect body, beautiful, blemish-less face or the capability to deal with any situation. Obviously there are exceptions but games like a lot of entertainment media are escapism and fantasy so I don't see a problem with playing as idealistic characters or overly sexualised ones (though I do agree that being able to play as a plainer more relatable 'real' character is very refreshing now and then) as long as escapism doesn't become blurred with one's view of reality.

I touched on it in the other thread but I've downloaded a lot of the more risque outfits for DoA5 and I own or have owned numerous figurines that could be considered sexist or whatever but none of this changes my outlook on reality or how I'd treat women.
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sirpigmeat
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Re: sexism?

Post by sirpigmeat » Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:00 am

Analog wrote:was anyone here tracking the stuff posted by anita sarkeesian? tbh I don't think she really has given feminists a good name, some of the stuff she comes out with, she finds sexism in games and parts of them where there is none. a lot of it is bullshit.

not saying that sexism doesn't exist but I would say after witnessing the backlash over gamergate that misogynistic and sexist attitudes tend to be more in some gamers minds rather than the actual games themselves.
I saw her level a criticism against, i think it was, speedball... Where you get a harem of woman if you become champion or something... I think she kind of missed the point a bit... Speedball isn't supposed to be a good world, the games not trying to promote sexual slavery anymore than its saying we should have televised blood sports... Its the fictional world in the game that is incredibly violent and sexist, not the game itself.

I think most games fall into this category too. The sexist attitudes are attributable to the world/genre/setting or a set of characters, not the game itself or the real world views of its developers.

I'm sure shes right about alot of stuff too though, more woman in the gaming industry etc. Although I think alot of it is down to prevailing views in society as a whole rather than gaming itself. Horse before the cart an all that.

I think when it comes to objectification, as many people have pointed out, it certainly cuts both ways in video games. Did anyone see that whole thing about the new xenoblade characters not being pretty enough? A good example really, as it was equally leveled at the male and female characters, by both male and female gamers. Not, give us some hot chicks... We want all are video game people pretty dognarmit!

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Sel Feena
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Re: sexism?

Post by Sel Feena » Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

I do wonder though, how a female equivalent of Bob or Rufus in a fighting game would be received
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Re: sexism?

Post by Antiriad2097 » Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:39 am

Megamixer wrote:I've also heard about disabled people being guaranteed to get through to the interview stage of certain job applications whereas non-disabled people still have to go through the sifting of applications. Obviously disabled people don't want to get looked down on (and rightly so) but equality comes into question when they have a clear advantage in the application process. This one's a bit trickier because the general idea is to protect disabled people from being automatically rejected based on disability but it does seem to contradict equality.
I presume you refer to the Guaranteed Interview scheme that is/was government backed.

These people still have to get through the application sifting process, since they must meet the minimum criteria for the job.

It just means they aren't sifted out if they have proved they are capable, so it's only making the shortlist for interview that is guaranteed after that process.

They still have to talk the talk at the interview and prove they're the best candidate. Since there are no longer quotas to be filled for having disabled employees, they still have a tough job, they have to convince someone that their disability will not impair their ability to do the job or cause undue problems for the employer.

It is positive discrimination, but its still not easy.
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