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Re: Can you justify using pirated software.

Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 12:59 pm
by PanzerGeneral
If suppliers, developers and manufacturers had knocked their collective heads together and agreed reasonable prices for software, the problem would never have gotten as bad as it did.
8 bit tape pirating was supposedly killing the industry, the companies responded by shifting their focus back towards consoles like the NES and Master system, then the Mega Drive and SNES, ROM formats were notoriously difficult and expensive to copy therefor piracy was not an issue. How did the companies respond to the fact they were losing nothing to the pirates?-by charging the consumer £40,£50 and sometimes £60 for a cartridge,(just imagine this adjusted to today's prices).

Until the companies reign in their corporate greed, piracy will continue.

I speak with a relatively clear conscience on this matter as I have never really dealt with or used copied software.

Re: Can you justify using pirated software.

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 4:27 am
by Gigifusc
PanzerGeneral wrote:If suppliers, developers and manufacturers had knocked their collective heads together and agreed reasonable prices for software, the problem would never have gotten as bad as it did.
8 bit tape pirating was supposedly killing the industry, the companies responded by shifting their focus back towards consoles like the NES and Master system, then the Mega Drive and SNES, ROM formats were notoriously difficult and expensive to copy therefor piracy was not an issue. How did the companies respond to the fact they were losing nothing to the pirates?-by charging the consumer £40,£50 and sometimes £60 for a cartridge,(just imagine this adjusted to today's prices).

Until the companies reign in their corporate greed, piracy will continue.

I speak with a relatively clear conscience on this matter as I have never really dealt with or used copied software.
Just to clarify there was piracy on the 16 bit consoles (not sure about NES & Mastersystem at time??).

On your second point, I'm not convinced that price if s/w is directly linked to levels if piracy. At least not to a high percentage. Piracy on the iOS and Android formats suggest otherwise.

Re: Can you justify using pirated software.

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 4:57 am
by General Opulence
As was mentioned above there was plenty of piracy on the 16-bit consoles, loads of 3rd party disk copying devices out there.

The reason 16bit console games were expensive had nothing todo with piracy, for one Sega and Nintendo charged a high fee to license software, and two the cost of producing cartridges was rising every year, one fact that killed the MS industry earlier than it would have done because sales were still there, but it was getting too risky and costly.

I personally think, piracy goes hand in hand what whatever industry its in be it music, movies or games and these companies use it as an excuse sometimes for bad sales or company shares declining.
Truth is alot of hardware manufacturers make more money when piracy is rife, the PSP, Nintendo DS, Amiga, ST, Dreamcast all undoubtably sold more untis because of the ease of playing pirated games on them, of course it doesnt make it right or good for the software companies, but they are born knowing it will happen and so should take it into account anyway and not just blame piracy, if the game is good then they will make money and the gaming industry will prosper regardless...

Re: Can you justify using pirated software.

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:21 am
by HalcyonDaze00
the developer of Hotline Miami 2 has told gamers in Australia to get a pirate copy :D

http://metro.co.uk/2015/01/16/hotline-m ... t-5024415/

Re: Can you justify using pirated software.

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:35 am
by kiwimike
This is a really interesting topic.

I clicked No...as in I can't justify it.

But yes, I have used it, and use to do so often. But still can't justify it :lol:

I haven't for years though- With the exception being buying bootleg DVDs when originals are either deleted (and expensive on Ebay) or were never made- So a bootleg is the only way.
Otherwise, I tend to not do it nowadays as most games/music/films are readily available for a reasonable price. My games machine of choice for example is the 360- No need to pirate games as they are plentiful and cheap as it is.

The last time I used pirated software was with the PS1. And that was during the infamous long wait for Metal Gear Solid in Pal areas. I had been on backorder for this game for six months, when the store in question phoned me to advise me the game had been pushed back another six.
So, a quick phone call to a local Dude, a quick trip, and that same night my PS1 was chipped, and I was playing MGS, and also had Parasite Eve (which never got here in the end I understand) and the latest Ridge Racer. :)
I still can't justify it though!

Re: Can you justify using pirated software.

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:35 am
by PanzerGeneral
Companies like Mastertronic showed what could be done when the price was right, I seriously doubt that software piracy had any kind of serious effect on them or any of the other budget labels.

Get the price point right and piracy suddenly does not seem as attractive.

Again, I would refer to my previous answer, companies that used the ROM cartridge format did not suffer any serious effects due to piracy-yet they still artificially inflated the price point on the products.
It's the old "sell the razor cheap, charge a fortune for the blades".

Re: Can you justify using pirated software.

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:43 am
by sscott
I think I can safely say that if EVERYONE pirated games there would be no industry, my concern would be what demographics show different age groups pirating? If its mainly younger people with a grand sense of entitlement then ita gonna have a bigger impact in the future, particularly for the smaller developer.

Re: Can you justify using pirated software.

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:49 am
by slacey1070
sscott wrote:I think I can safely say that if EVERYONE pirated games there would be no industry, my concern would be what demographics show different age groups pirating? If its mainly younger people with a grand sense of entitlement then ita gonna have a bigger impact in the future, particularly for the smaller developer.
But almost everyone has pirated at some point - I used to pirate in the 8bit days, but I still spent all my free cash on games. If everyone pirated everything, then that is more of an issue.

In the 70s, music was going to die out because of TDK c90 tapes. It didn't. And music is as strong as it ever was, as the industry had changed.

What I really dislike is piracy on an industrial scale, passed off as original. That, for me, its a total different ball game to someone sticking some ISO onto their PSP.

I just wish that the industry would offer someone more to gamers for buying games - you rarely get an instruction manual now - I used to like the background stories and a manual.

However, those days are over.

Re: Can you justify using pirated software.

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 2:56 pm
by DaveDoc1984
I may download and play a retro game for a system i.e. Mega Drive or PlayStation. If I like the game when I play it, I will usually see if I can find it in a game shop that is selling retro games for reasonable prices to support that shop.

Re: Can you justify using pirated software.

Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:31 pm
by Gabe
Gigifusc wrote:It's not a justification but more a side note - the idea of a 'lost sale' has been shown to be a completely incorrect statistic simply because not every pirated version would have equaled a sale. So that makes it a percentage instead. I've no idea what that percentage actually is but I remember reading something about it being much lower than you'd expect. (I might have made that up though so beware!!) :)
What does that even matter though, really? I don't think anybody (even those in the industry) truly believe that each pirate copy equates to a lost sale but they need to fully condemn the act, not wave their hands and say "Actually, only some of is a lost sale, so we aren't fussed about the rest of it. But so what? There's a horrible sense of entitlement that I'm not sure exists in other media - the whole "I'll pirate if I can't afford it/find it in shops," yet people think they still deserve to be able to play something as if it's a right. I'm pretty sure that there have also been studies that suggest there is little link between income/education and levels of piracy. I think I once saw something that suggested those with a higher-disposable income disproportionately pirate, too.
The main argument is a cyclical one IMO. Piracy is against the law any which way you spin it but who's to say the law is right? Certainly in many other aspects (such as human rights) we know it to be very wrong or at least be so corruptible as to be as good as wrong.

If I create something who says it belongs to me? Copyright law. But copyright law exists as a human mode code of conduct. Again, we know that those are open to corruption and often wrong. So where do we go now?

Ok. So now I've muddied the water with legal BS, what's next? Morals.

In the eyes of many people the creators of the thing that we hold so dear are so greedy and dysfunctional that it justifies piracy. How many times have you spent £20, £30 or £50 on a game you were really looking forward to to then realise it was pretty censored? Hell we've got decades of god awful film and movie tie ins to show that. So if you're abusing the public isn't it hypocritical if you cry foul when the public abuses you?

Ok, you might argue that the buyer should do their homework and read reviews to see that Game X was rubbish. But it really doesn't work that way. Not everyone has the understanding of video games that many of us do. I'd say 90% of my extended family don't understand VG's. What's good, what's bad, what's the age rating? They haven't got a clue. Some people might say 'well, tough on them'. But that's a pretty harsh POV IMO. Lack of understanding of something shouldn't make you open to abuse because, y'know, that's immoral right?
The legal stuff, oh my. No.

As for the morals, equating games/films/TV that may not be as good as hoped to abuse not only devalues the argument but is stupid. Nobody is forced to buy/watch games or TV. Furthermore, there are good and bad products in every industry. Should people steal everything? Of course not, it's up to each individual to make purchasing decisions based on their own standards and level of research. Unless a product is demonstrably broken, then if they buy a dud, learn from it and move on. Caveat emptor, indeed.
Look at F2P games. They are designed to hook people in - they are designed specifically to get players addicted so that they'll pay to continue playing. The biggest F2P games on the market use human psychology to achieve that aim FFS. The mechanics of F2P games are so close to gambling machines that it's not funny. So again I ask - if you're happy to manipulate people in this way, it's difficult to feel pity when people pirate your games.

So where does that leave us? I have no idea. All I know is that the concept and argument of piracy is much more complex and deeper than most people think.

Disclaimer: I don't necessarily believe what I've said above I'm just pointing out that side of the argument.
There's no denying that F2P is a different mechanic that taps into different psychology, but again, people aren't forced into paying for things. And all manner of businesses use psychology to try and tempt more sales (supermarkets have been doing it for decades, TV adverts all the time etc), it's nothing new. Most F2P rely on a very small percentage of players spending the vast majority of money of them, so I think it's reasonable to not class this as immoral or abusive.

Nothing you've posted is an argument for justifying piracy. The fact is that the issue isn't very complex - it's just that people come up with all manner of reasons to try and make it seem like it is. The simple fact is that we all currently have to respect and live within the laws that exist - if we feel these are outdated or wrong we need to use democracy to try and effect change, not try and pretend we're in some way making a statement to publishers/"the Man" by committing a crime because we can.