Can you justify using pirated software.

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Are you able to justify using pirated software and if so how?

Poll ended at Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:08 am

1. YES
14
47%
2. NO
14
47%
3. It's too deep for me. I can't make a decision
2
7%
 
Total votes: 30

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Sephiroth81
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Re: Can you justify using pirated software.

Post by Sephiroth81 » Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:03 pm

flatapex wrote:
stvd wrote:No I can't. And I don't feel the need to.

Some of the "attempts " at justification are quite good though.
Old roms = ok
New stuff = bad
agreed, emulate to preserve, if you can go out and buy it brand new for a current gen console, thats not preservation
True.

I feel that if a software company wants to bleed more money out of an old, commercially unavailable game, and make us consumers want to buy them, then they must do something more than just package a simple ROM. The Virtual Console offers very very little over a standard ROM....other than a channel icon, and some brief operating instructions. I have found running SNES games on SNES9X on Wii Homebrew, to look much more polished than they do as a Virtual console SNES game, at least SNES9X provides you options to filter the graphics if you wish to.

When developers re-release older games from their library with enhancements, like they do frequently on PSN and XBL, eg. online multiplayer, achievements and more importantly graphical overhauls and HD remixes, then I will pay for them.

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Antiriad2097
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Re: Can you justify using pirated software.

Post by Antiriad2097 » Wed Jan 14, 2015 2:18 am

Megamixer wrote:
JoeNTMY wrote:I think a large part of people pirating software, or anything else for that matter, is the fact that you're extremely unlikely to be prosecuted for it. How many people that are pirates would steal a game, CD, Blu-ray, etc from a shop? That's my personal view.
This is a really good point. Pirating something rather than paying for it is no different to walking into GAME and stealing a physical copy from the shelf. In both cases you end up with the product you wanted and haven't paid for it. The ONLY difference is that people somehow feel comfortable with the former but would no way in hell decide to grab a game from a store shelf and leg it out the door with alarms blazing, security chasing etc.

I said it in another thread (may even have been this one...there are quite a few on the go!) but I think it would be interesting to see people's stance on pirating games if they were as likely to be caught and prosecuted for downloading as they would be for shoplifting. Both methods of acquiring the item have exactly the same end result, exactly the same cost (i.e. £0) but just different likelihoods of getting caught. But does the fact that you won't get caught mean that downloading is somehow more acceptable than pilfering from a physical store?

Bear in mind that the above only really applies to stuff that is still available to purchase new i.e. modern pirated games.
Piracy doesn't equal shoplifting.

If I download, the download is still available for others.

If I shoplift, that's a copy of the game removed from retail, no longer available to a buyer, at a cost to tbe retailer.

Very different.
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gman72
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Re: Can you justify using pirated software.

Post by gman72 » Wed Jan 14, 2015 3:38 am

Antiriad2097 wrote:
Very different.
It is still stealing though, don't you agree?
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Mayhem
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Re: Can you justify using pirated software.

Post by Mayhem » Wed Jan 14, 2015 6:03 am

In the eyes of the law, piracy is copyright infringement and taking a game from a shop is theft, so yeah, they've different. GAME are still able to sell a copy of a game you've pirated, it can't if you've stolen it directly.
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Gigifusc
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Re: Can you justify using pirated software.

Post by Gigifusc » Wed Jan 14, 2015 6:29 am

I was thinking a bit more about this whole Judge Dredd 'it's against the law' POV and whilst there is no denying it is against the law I really do think that it's so murky that it throws up more questions than answers.

Copyright law was created to protect the big corporate companies. It wasn't written to protect either individuals and/or small companies - that came as a simple byproduct.

This can be seen in the very real examples of large corporations going against either individuals or small companies. Where copyright law is concerned, the guy with the most expensive lawyers usually wins (not 100% but usually). That fact can't really be disputed - there's enough examples around to prove it to be true. Heavens you don't need to look any further than the shameful case of King.com who used their billions to bully small dev's and individuals into abiding by their wishes of copyrighting the words 'Candy', 'Crush' and 'Saga'. The hypocrisy of that case was shocking - a company that built its entire success by developing a game that used a well known gameplay mechanic! FFS. What world do we live in???

So anyway, once we accept that copyright law is actually flawed to a high degree where does that leave us? As mentioned before - if I use a rom of a game that is no longer for sale on a platform that is no longer for sale, is that wrong? Am I breaking the law and if I am, SHOULD I be breaking the law or should the law be changed?

And then we move on to - The law protects the copyright holder but where's my protection? If a company releases a piece of s/w that is of poor quality, what can I do about it? And I'm not talking about bugged or unusable s/w I'm talking about poor user quality. Poorly designed and implimented s/w has almost no recognition in the eyes of the law. Why? Because it doesn't protect the copyright holder who we've already accepted is the main recipient of the written law. Also it's very difficult to recognise. How can one prove that a game is just rubbish to play? You can't really.

So that leaves individuals and small companies with very little protection whereas the large corporate companies have most of the protection.

censored the law, morally, that's wrong. It's out of balance and if there's one thing we do know is that there must be balance in everything. You sting me for money, I sting you by pirating your stuff. That's balance. :D

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RodimusPrime
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Re: Can you justify using pirated software.

Post by RodimusPrime » Wed Jan 14, 2015 6:40 am

Thats the worst justification I have ever heard.

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Re: Can you justify using pirated software.

Post by Gigifusc » Wed Jan 14, 2015 6:53 am

RodimusPrime wrote:Thats the worst justification I have ever heard.
That wasn't a justification - that was simply an answer to the point being raised about 'the law is the law'.

The law is flawed - you can't deny that.

I can't offer justification as I'm not convinced there is any real 'justification'. I've just been saying that it's not as cut and dry as simply 'it's wrong/it's against the law'. There's far more to it than that. I guess I'm trying to say that there needs to be culpability on both sides. Games creators need to behave responsibly and end users need to behave responsibly and then things balance out. At the moment, in many cases, neither are behaving responsibly which leads to an imbalance which leads to the problems - one of which we're discussing here.

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Sel Feena
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Re: Can you justify using pirated software.

Post by Sel Feena » Wed Jan 14, 2015 6:57 am

But what do you mean by devs acting responsibly? Do you mean the s/w put out should be at an acceptable level of technical polish, so no Ass Creed style glitches? What about net code for online?
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gman72
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Re: Can you justify using pirated software.

Post by gman72 » Wed Jan 14, 2015 7:06 am

Mayhem wrote:In the eyes of the law, piracy is copyright infringement.
So are you saying copyright infringement isn't theft?
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Re: Can you justify using pirated software.

Post by Megamixer » Wed Jan 14, 2015 7:28 am

I wonder though...if one of us posting in this thread suddenly got into games development and became really successful at it and then had their stuff pirated would the same laid-back response about copyright being flawed still be wheeled out? Would we really try and justify the actions of those taking from us?

Think this is a really good discussion by the way.
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Gigifusc
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Re: Can you justify using pirated software.

Post by Gigifusc » Wed Jan 14, 2015 7:39 am

Sel Feena wrote:But what do you mean by devs acting responsibly? Do you mean the s/w put out should be at an acceptable level of technical polish, so no Ass Creed style glitches? What about net code for online?
Um. Good question. LOL.

I guess I mean not trying to bleed me dry by selling me the same thing again and again.

Not taking advantage of me by releasing sub standard games - both technically and game play. This is a big thing for me tbh. The last couple of years have been shocking. The evolution of game design seems to have just ground to a halt. I find myself struggling to find a game on current gen that I think is worthy of my time and money - I'm playing more retro games than ever before as a result.

Stop taking advantage of me with the morally corrupt F2P mechanics - some of these are quite shameful. I pay £50 for a game and then find that you've balanced it to get more money out of me! FIFA ultimate team is just incredible in the way it bleeds youngsters for their money!
Last edited by Gigifusc on Wed Jan 14, 2015 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Can you justify using pirated software.

Post by Megamixer » Wed Jan 14, 2015 7:43 am

Gigifusc wrote:Stop taking advantage of us with the morally corrupt F2P mechanics - some of these are quite shameful. I pay £50 for a game and then find that you've balanced it to get more money out of me! FIFA ultimate team is just incredible in the way it bleeds youngsters for their money!
Thing is, as long as these types of games generate the money that they do then they are here to stay. I think more people play these types of games without getting into the whole debate of whether they are wrong or right (it probably doesn't cross their mind) and long-term gamers such as ourselves on this forum are likely a very small minority voice even though it may not seem it when surrounded by many like-minded users.

F2P needs to stop people buying into it for it to die off in the same way that many classic gaming franchises or genres are no longer produced because people stopped buying them.
Retro is a state of mind, and cares not for your puny concepts like dates and calendars.

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Re: Can you justify using pirated software.

Post by Gigifusc » Wed Jan 14, 2015 7:52 am

Megamixer wrote:I wonder though...if one of us posting in this thread suddenly got into games development and became really successful at it and then had their stuff pirated would the same laid-back response about copyright being flawed still be wheeled out? Would we really try and justify the actions of those taking from us?

Think this is a really good discussion by the way.
I am a games developer. I've worked in the industry for about 13 years. I've seen games I worked on pirated and have never really thought much of it. I don't see them as a lost sale, I see it as a failure on our part to create a game that inspired or motivated those people enough to buy an original copy of the game.

Just over a year ago I spent 6 months slogging away with a partner developing our own indie mobile game. It was a tough 6 months of working into the early hours night after night.

We released it on iPhone and Android. Response (what we got at least) was pretty positive. It was a commercial quality game and most people that played it thought it was pretty decent.

We sold it for 69p on iPhone. In the first 3 months we got something like 65,000 downloads. About 90% of those were pirated versions of the game - our actual sales figures was in the hundreds.

Again, I didn't really hate on the pirates. I just didn't see them as lost sales. I saw them as downloads from people that would never pay 69p for our game but did pirate it for free. Again, I saw it as a failure on our part - we didn't manage to develop or market a game that moved people enough to pay for it.

Interestingly, we killed the company off as we had no money left and changed it to free. Last time I checked before it got taken down from the appstore was just over 100,000 downloads.

On the one hand I'm happy that over 100,000 people got to play and hopefully enjoy our game. On the other hand less than 50% of those downloads were made when the game was free - people pirated it more when it was 69p than when it was free. Howabout that.

BTW - the game had no IAP's - it was either 69p or free for the whole thing.
:)

Edit: I should clarify I'm a designer not a coder. (the word 'developer' has been stolen by coders to mean just them). :)
Last edited by Gigifusc on Wed Jan 14, 2015 7:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

Gigifusc
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Re: Can you justify using pirated software.

Post by Gigifusc » Wed Jan 14, 2015 7:54 am

Megamixer wrote:
Gigifusc wrote:Stop taking advantage of us with the morally corrupt F2P mechanics - some of these are quite shameful. I pay £50 for a game and then find that you've balanced it to get more money out of me! FIFA ultimate team is just incredible in the way it bleeds youngsters for their money!
Thing is, as long as these types of games generate the money that they do then they are here to stay. I think more people play these types of games without getting into the whole debate of whether they are wrong or right (it probably doesn't cross their mind) and long-term gamers such as ourselves on this forum are likely a very small minority voice even though it may not seem it when surrounded by many like-minded users.

F2P needs to stop people buying into it for it to die off in the same way that many classic gaming franchises or genres are no longer produced because people stopped buying them.
Yes, I agree with you. And I guess I see piracy - especially when discussing roms of older games - as similar. It's a small, niche, minority of people who do it when compared to the mass demographic of games players and it's effect on the overall industry is probably quite small.

Current game piracy is a very different thing I think.

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Sel Feena
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Re: Can you justify using pirated software.

Post by Sel Feena » Wed Jan 14, 2015 7:59 am

Gigifusc wrote:
Sel Feena wrote:But what do you mean by devs acting responsibly? Do you mean the s/w put out should be at an acceptable level of technical polish, so no Ass Creed style glitches? What about net code for online?
Um. Good question. LOL.

I guess I mean not trying to bleed us dry by selling us the same thing again and again.

Not taking advantage of us by releasing sub standard games - both technically and game play. This is a big thing for me tbh. The last couple of years have been shocking. The evolution of game design seems to have just ground to a halt. I find myself struggling to find a game on current gen that I think is worthy of my time and money - I'm playing more retro games than ever before as a result.

Stop taking advantage of us with the morally corrupt F2P mechanics - some of these are quite shameful. I pay £50 for a game and then find that you've balanced it to get more money out of me! FIFA ultimate team is just incredible in the way it bleeds youngsters for their money!
Well, when you get to matters of gameplay and design, and even F2P mechanics, you really cannot talk about legislation covering that. One man's meat is another man's poison.
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