More woe for nintendo

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Shinobi
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Re: More woe for nintendo

Post by Shinobi » Tue May 20, 2014 7:28 pm

The Laird wrote:
Negative Creep wrote:
Shinobi wrote:I was told in Game that the Wii U is now selling really well and I could miss out on Mario Kart if I don't pre-order.
Yes, best pay us now. No ulterior motive there.............
:lol: :lol: :lol:

I was really interested in the Wii U after getting in on the extended press playing session at Play a couple of years ago. Especially as a big fan of the Wii who could still play all his games on it.

However nearly 2 years on there is isn't a single game on it that makes me want to buy one. There are only 2 games on the console I am vaguely interested in and that isn't anywhere near good enough to make me even consider one, I will stick with the 360 for now and get a Xbox One when the price has come down.
I do agree with you I had my Wii U bought as a present as everybody was raving about how good it was.. I own two games Mario World 3d Land and Ninja Gaiden 3.. I think Mario Kart 8, and Bayonetta 2 and Gun Lord if and when they ever come out will change that.. I am interested in Wonderful 101, Sonic Lost World and Donkey Kong three games I never see in the shops.. I do think it has the means to be good just needs more games
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Re: More woe for nintendo

Post by pratty » Tue May 20, 2014 8:34 pm

outdated_gamer wrote:It could also be added that Nintendo had this rethoric how people will follow what they do, and not vice-versa. But this simply didn't happen and it wouldn't be far-fetched to say that they (Nintendo) are too self-minded. In this day and age, when we have "crowd-funded" projects going on and people expressing their wishes over the internet, this is not a good business practice.
I agree there is a degree of this, a "this is how we think best" approach, them steering gaming in a certain directions. But there's two sides to it. In pioneering new ideas you can't always follow the what the consumer wants because the consumer doesn't think that outside the box, certainly not as a mass group. And even crowd funded projects must start from a single person's leading suggestion. Nintendo says this generation "we will be using motion controls, who's on board?" How different is that from somebody saying, "Hey I'm making this indy game, who wants to help fund me?" ?

I think there's a balance to be struck between listening to what people 'want' and taking the initiaive yourself, I think you need a bit of both approaches, otherwise how else do you exceed people's expectations if you just give them what they expect? Nobody wanted 'Toon Link' for Windwaker, as it turns out it was a great artisitc choice by Nintendo in my opinion, I'm glad they did it even though I didn't ask for it.
outdated_gamer wrote:IJust think about how many people wish(ed) for a "full-blown" Pokemon game on a home Nintendo system - why is Nintendo refusing to acknowledge what their fan base actually wants? It seems all they care about it pumping out more Mario and Zelda. Nothing bad about those franchises, but how about giving some other, "forgotten" franchises a shot? Maybe that's what people actually want now, as opposed to simply more Mario (and a handful of unique, niche games the system has going for it).
Like Pikmin, or Luigi's Mansion or Kid Icarus, or Pilot wings. Ok only one of them is on the Wii-U but the console is still young. I think a Starfox game could spark some interest. F-Zero might even get a few fence sitting oldschool Nintendo fans to hop over, but other than that I don't know what other franchises could make any significant impact. Waverace and 1080? No chance, I just don't see it in today's market.

And how many people really did wish for a console Pokemon game? Probably quite a few, but they made console games for the N64 and Gamecube and while they did good sales (which progessively decreased from game to game), the handheld Pokemon games sales utterly destroyed them. So do they listen to their fans and make the console Pokemon game you claim people want, or (seeing as we're talking Nintendo's finances) do they listen to their fans and their accountants and make a handheld Pokemon game? This is the demand balance problem, trying to weigh up proven financial success vs an intangible percieved demand for something different, you don't always want to do the safe and predictable thing but can you take the risk not to? They might well make a Pokemon Wii-U game to dip their toes in the water, but if not enough people buy it don't expect to see another one for a while.

I think Nintendo takes more risks than people think, people focus on big sellers like Mario and Mario Kart as all Nintendo does, but looking back at the Wii, there wasn't exactly high fan demand for Wario Land or Punch Out or even Donkey Kong Country before those games were announced. Maybe E3 will surprise us, perhaps Nintendo will again offer some more riskier franchise updates alongside the proven sellers. Perhaps something from Retro Studios, they've already confirmed they've started on something. I think now is not the time to be overly secretive. Even if the games aren't ready for a while yet, I think just the promise of some key games would do the Wii-U's image a lot of good.
outdated_gamer wrote:If Nintendo put their old games on Steam, they'd make a fortune, imo (given they would be priced fairly). Because that's where a lot of those who were growing up on NES, SNES, GB, ect. now are on.
Possibly so, but it would give people one less reason for someone to buy a Wii-U.

I think people see Nintendo in far worse trouble than they're actually in. Yes they've posted losses but they are a long way from going under, so they're probably not that desperate as people think to do something drastic such as go 3rd party and/or give up their franchises's exclusivity, just for a quick fix cash grab. Sure they need to make money like any other business but that's not all they're about, they are a company as passionate about making hardware as they are software so they're going to give the Wii-U every chance to improve. And even then, if it doesn't they may just try to make a better console next time, why give up on hardware unless you absolutely have to, especially as the Wii and DS proved they can be so lucrative when you get them right?
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silvergunner
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Re: More woe for nintendo

Post by silvergunner » Wed May 21, 2014 2:40 am

Did star fox sell in great enough numbers on 3DS to consider making one from scratch on Wii U? Probably not. Don't see a new F-zero turning up anytime soon on a major console, even more so as Nintendo did not even make the last one. But this is Nintendo we are talking about so who knows.

In the end they will release what they what to release and when. Making us fans nash our teeth in frustration forever more as they will stick to the mindset of bloody mindedness and never give a certain section of the gaming community what they want.

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Re: More woe for nintendo

Post by slacey1070 » Wed May 21, 2014 3:15 am

silvergunner wrote:Did star fox sell in great enough numbers on 3DS to consider making one from scratch on Wii U? Probably not. Don't see a new F-zero turning up anytime soon on a major console, even more so as Nintendo did not even make the last one. But this is Nintendo we are talking about so who knows.

In the end they will release what they what to release and when. Making us fans nash our teeth in frustration forever more as they will stick to the mindset of bloody mindedness and never give a certain section of the gaming community what they want.
I've said it numerous times on here, the likes of f zero and star fox appeal to gamers like us. Yet, we arent "the market" and I doubt these franchises would add many sales to the Wii u.... Despite wanting to see them personally.

F zero on the 3ds anyone??
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Re: More woe for nintendo

Post by outdated_gamer » Wed May 21, 2014 9:35 am

pratty wrote:
outdated_gamer wrote:IJust think about how many people wish(ed) for a "full-blown" Pokemon game on a home Nintendo system - why is Nintendo refusing to acknowledge what their fan base actually wants? It seems all they care about it pumping out more Mario and Zelda. Nothing bad about those franchises, but how about giving some other, "forgotten" franchises a shot? Maybe that's what people actually want now, as opposed to simply more Mario (and a handful of unique, niche games the system has going for it).
Like Pikmin, or Luigi's Mansion or Kid Icarus, or Pilot wings. Ok only one of them is on the Wii-U but the console is still young. I think a Starfox game could spark some interest. F-Zero might even get a few fence sitting oldschool Nintendo fans to hop over, but other than that I don't know what other franchises could make any significant impact. Waverace and 1080? No chance, I just don't see it in today's market.

And how many people really did wish for a console Pokemon game? Probably quite a few, but they made console games for the N64 and Gamecube and while they did good sales (which progessively decreased from game to game), the handheld Pokemon games sales utterly destroyed them. So do they listen to their fans and make the console Pokemon game you claim people want, or (seeing as we're talking Nintendo's finances) do they listen to their fans and their accountants and make a handheld Pokemon game? This is the demand balance problem, trying to weigh up proven financial success vs an intangible percieved demand for something different, you don't always want to do the safe and predictable thing but can you take the risk not to? They might well make a Pokemon Wii-U game to dip their toes in the water, but if not enough people buy it don't expect to see another one for a while.

I think Nintendo takes more risks than people think, people focus on big sellers like Mario and Mario Kart as all Nintendo does, but looking back at the Wii, there wasn't exactly high fan demand for Wario Land or Punch Out or even Donkey Kong Country before those games were announced. Maybe E3 will surprise us, perhaps Nintendo will again offer some more riskier franchise updates alongside the proven sellers. Perhaps something from Retro Studios, they've already confirmed they've started on something. I think now is not the time to be overly secretive. Even if the games aren't ready for a while yet, I think just the promise of some key games would do the Wii-U's image a lot of good.
I think if they gave those franchises the same love as Mario and Zelda receive, they'd see a considerable success. The reason why I think so that when these games were still made by Nintendo themselves (& their closest partners), they were popular and sold well. But once Nintendo started handing them over to random 3rd party developers (i.e. Star Fox Assault - Namco, Metroid: Other M - Tecmo, Pokemon XD - Genius), the games weren't seen as higly anymore and they didn't sell as good either. So basically they started treating them as "2nd class" franchises and it showed in the sales. Granted, there were some exceptions to the rule such as the excellent F-Zero GX, which was co-developed by Sega but has seen a poor commercial performance, but I think judging a whole series' potential based on one game is narrow-sighted. For all we may know the market could be different today and a new, high-speed and polished F-Zero game with online play and track/vehicle costumization could do well.

It would certainly be better to give it another shot than simply burry it (of course the same applys to new IPs and concepts too - remember Project H.A.M.M.E.R. and Raven Blade ).

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Re: More woe for nintendo

Post by Matt_B » Wed May 21, 2014 11:02 am

It's all well and good asking for Nintendo to resurrect all their classic franchises, and do them in house to boot, but they've only got so many development teams and the ones that they have are being increasingly taxed by the demands of making games in HD.

And that's something we're seeing across the industry; most of the big publishers are whittling down their catalogues to a relatively small number of big hitters, simply because of the time and people required to make a hit game.

The one thing that Nintendo do have though is money, so they can easily pay someone else to make games that they've not the internal resources for. However, if the quality is going to suffer that's not necessarily the best strategy.

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Re: More woe for nintendo

Post by pratty » Wed May 21, 2014 11:51 am

I think we also have to give Nintendo some time in order to judge their response to the Wii-U's disappointing sales. Right or wrong Nintendo made and released the Wii-U games so far that it thought would sell, what's done is done. So we have to allow some time for their reaction to actually take place and manifest in the form of games people can actually buy, or at least look forward to. Even if releasing updates of F-Zero and Starfox etc are indeed the answer, they're going to take considerable time to develop, especially if we want them to be as good as they would need to be. So even if Nintendo gave F-Zero or Starfox the green light a year ago it could still be another year away from release.

This is why E3 could be crucial, because maybe then we'll see what Nintendo intends to do as far as games go. For all we know Retro Studios or Monolith Soft could be working on the Wii-U's killer app as we speak. If Retro continue their apparent remit of working on updates of Nintendo's existing franchises, as their name suggests, then they're almost certainly working on a something that ought to appeal to 'classic Nintendo' fans. Monolift could be making a new IP, some epic RPG a la Xenoblade that captures the core gamers imagination. Not to mention what 3rd party deals Nintendo may have negotiated over the past few months, occasionally Nintendo do pull off a coup, like getting a big exclusive, maybe they've got something big they're waiting for E3 to drop.
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Re: More woe for nintendo

Post by gman72 » Wed May 21, 2014 12:42 pm

I do get the feeling Ninty are gonna have a good E3.
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Re: More woe for nintendo

Post by outdated_gamer » Wed May 21, 2014 1:00 pm

Matt_B wrote:It's all well and good asking for Nintendo to resurrect all their classic franchises, and do them in house to boot, but they've only got so many development teams and the ones that they have are being increasingly taxed by the demands of making games in HD.

And that's something we're seeing across the industry; most of the big publishers are whittling down their catalogues to a relatively small number of big hitters, simply because of the time and people required to make a hit game.

The one thing that Nintendo do have though is money, so they can easily pay someone else to make games that they've not the internal resources for. However, if the quality is going to suffer that's not necessarily the best strategy.
But how come Rare could, when they were still with Ninty, make about half a dozen great games per year? And it wasn't just take-ons on Nintendo's franchises, but also new IPs and continuations of older franchises. Sure, they re-used a lof of assets and the game budgets weren't as high back then, still, you can't convince me that all the sudios Nintendo currently own (i.e. Retro, Monolith, Intelligent, ect.) can only make one great title per several years.

Plus they have outside partners like Platinum Games and Sega, and EAD are now bigger than ever, having absorbed several previous Nintendo sub-studios so they could do more than just Mario and Zelda.

Yes, Nintendo has the "dough", so how about spending some? If going by the latest trends in gaming, high investments also mean high returns (e.g. GTA V). If they only use low budgets, it's a question if they will reap the same awards anymore. The so-called "casual" audience isn't as prominent as it was last gen - it's the "mainstream" gamers who are the main audience now. So Nintendo could try better to impress and get them on board, imo.

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Re: More woe for nintendo

Post by Matt_B » Wed May 21, 2014 1:07 pm

outdated_gamer wrote:But how come Rare could, when they were still with Ninty, make about half a dozen great games per year? And it wasn't just take-ons on Nintendo's franchises, but also new IPs and continuations of older franchises. Sure, they re-used a lof of assets and the game budgets weren't as high back then, still, you can't convince me that all the sudios Nintendo currently own (i.e. Retro, Monolith, Intelligent, ect.) can only make one great title per several years.
Yeah, but just look at what Rare have been doing in recent years...

That was a very different era, and I'd challenge you to name any studio now that can get more than one big budget game out per year on a regular basis to good reviews. Most only manage it a lot less frequently than that, even.

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Re: More woe for nintendo

Post by outdated_gamer » Wed May 21, 2014 1:12 pm

Matt_B wrote:
outdated_gamer wrote:But how come Rare could, when they were still with Ninty, make about half a dozen great games per year? And it wasn't just take-ons on Nintendo's franchises, but also new IPs and continuations of older franchises. Sure, they re-used a lof of assets and the game budgets weren't as high back then, still, you can't convince me that all the sudios Nintendo currently own (i.e. Retro, Monolith, Intelligent, ect.) can only make one great title per several years.
Yeah, but just look at what Rare have been doing in recent years...
Well that they got by getting bought by MS... :P ( :( )

Not that I hate MS but it really wasn't a good (long-term) idea on either side, imo.

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Re: More woe for nintendo

Post by pratty » Wed May 21, 2014 1:46 pm

outdated_gamer wrote:But how come Rare could, when they were still with Ninty, make about half a dozen great games per year?
Are you saying Nintendo don't? suppose it depends what we mean by great.

If that was their only challenge though, make about 6 great games a year I don't think Nintendo wouldn't have too much to worry about. Between the 3DS and Wii U i'm sure you could easily come up with 6 great games a year. In 2013 for example you had games like Super Mario 3D World, DKCR: Tropical Feeeze, Pikmin 3, Pokemon X&Y, A link Between Worlds, Mario and Luigi dream Team, Luigi's Mansion 2, Animal Crossing: New Leaf. And that's not including the DK:CR 3Ds port, the Super Luigi-U spin-off and the Windwaker remake. The problem for the Wii-U is that Nintendo spread their games across two platforms. The Wii-U lineup would look a lot healthier if it had all the 3Ds' titles.

And did rare make 6 great games in a year? Again, great is obviously subjective, but I'm doubtful they did, maybe more like 3 or 4, which is still pretty good to be fair. Perhaps a better question is why aren't Rare still doing this, but that's for another thread.

As for why we see fewer new IPs from Nintendo themselves I have a theory I've mentioned a few times, that the more succesful IPs you make over time, the more demand there is for sequels, therefore in order to meet that demand you have less time and resources to make new IPs, which at least on the surface aren't as safe a bet as an already succesful franchise with a proven audience. That applies to the other exisiting Nintendo IPs you mentioned, maybe they're apparently not making F-Zero because there's simply more demand for say Animal Crossing.
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Re: More woe for nintendo

Post by greenberet79 » Thu May 22, 2014 4:16 am

pratty wrote: In 2013 for example you had games like Super Mario 3D World, DKCR: Tropical Feeeze, Pikmin 3, Pokemon X&Y, A link Between Worlds, Mario and Luigi dream Team, Luigi's Mansion 2, Animal Crossing: New Leaf.
I'd buy Mario 3D out of them. DK at a push. No interest in the others.

I say this as a Gamecube fan and owner since day one, but Luigi's Mansion is pretty overrated. I couldn't believe they made a sequel.
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Re: More woe for nintendo

Post by gman72 » Thu May 22, 2014 5:48 am

Well obviously thats a matter of opinion, I enjoyed Luigis Mansion and its good that you bring that up as an example. There has been talk of Ninty bringing back old franchises... isnt this exactly what they have done here with Luigis Mansion? :D
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