More woe for nintendo

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HalcyonDaze00
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More woe for nintendo

Post by HalcyonDaze00 » Fri May 09, 2014 7:41 pm

yet another shocking financial loss for nintendo, the Wii U, deary me!

http://www.trustedreviews.com/news/nint ... ales-slump

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outdated_gamer
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Re: More woe for nintendo

Post by outdated_gamer » Fri May 09, 2014 8:04 pm

Yeah, they lost most of the large Wii userbase and are now back to GameCube-style struggling system. Nothing really new here. I think they'll have to accept that the hardware probably won't sell better than GC levels (price cut wouldn't do a mirracle either, just like it didn't for GC) and focus on the software instead. Which they basically are doing, they'd just need more appealing 3rd party exclusives or original IPs. A realistic-looking Zelda or Metroid game could get a lot of attention too.

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Sel Feena
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Re: More woe for nintendo

Post by Sel Feena » Fri May 09, 2014 8:31 pm

Recently saw Kotaku trying to stir the pot with Ninty - http://kotaku.com/nintendo-responds-ter ... 1572973952 - those guys really are professional trolls.
outdated_gamer wrote:A realistic-looking Zelda or Metroid game could get a lot of attention too.
Metroid I could get behind, but I think a realistic-looking Zelda would just put me right off. It'd feel wrong to me somehow.
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Re: More woe for nintendo

Post by kiwimike » Fri May 09, 2014 9:43 pm

outdated_gamer wrote:Yeah, they lost most of the large Wii userbase and are now back to GameCube-style struggling system. Nothing really new here. I think they'll have to accept that the hardware probably won't sell better than GC levels (price cut wouldn't do a mirracle either, just like it didn't for GC) and focus on the software instead. Which they basically are doing, they'd just need more appealing 3rd party exclusives or original IPs. A realistic-looking Zelda or Metroid game could get a lot of attention too.
They just haven't given me enough reason to buy a Wii U, from a consumer point of view. The marketing seemed a little confusing, when you saw the average customer in a store they would look at the Wii U as a brief curiosity before heading to the Xbox/PS stands. There were no real examples of how this system would work or be good with this tablet type controller that told you why this set up would be good...and far too much reliance on the likes of yet another Mario update :? Yet another new Mario Kart etc will only please a minority. They did need new Zelda, Metroid, and how bout Excitebike, Waverace, 1080? How bout some of the earlier franchises rather than Mario, Mario and more Mario? It has some great games, Zombie,Lego City...but not nearly enough of them.
I like Nintendo, I love the 3DS XL, and I hope they can bounce back, but IMO they need to evolve a bit.

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outdated_gamer
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Re: More woe for nintendo

Post by outdated_gamer » Fri May 09, 2014 10:28 pm

kiwimike wrote:
outdated_gamer wrote:Yeah, they lost most of the large Wii userbase and are now back to GameCube-style struggling system. Nothing really new here. I think they'll have to accept that the hardware probably won't sell better than GC levels (price cut wouldn't do a mirracle either, just like it didn't for GC) and focus on the software instead. Which they basically are doing, they'd just need more appealing 3rd party exclusives or original IPs. A realistic-looking Zelda or Metroid game could get a lot of attention too.
They just haven't given me enough reason to buy a Wii U, from a consumer point of view. The marketing seemed a little confusing, when you saw the average customer in a store they would look at the Wii U as a brief curiosity before heading to the Xbox/PS stands. There were no real examples of how this system would work or be good with this tablet type controller that told you why this set up would be good...and far too much reliance on the likes of yet another Mario update :? Yet another new Mario Kart etc will only please a minority. They did need new Zelda, Metroid, and how bout Excitebike, Waverace, 1080? How bout some of the earlier franchises rather than Mario, Mario and more Mario? It has some great games, Zombie,Lego City...but not nearly enough of them.
I like Nintendo, I love the 3DS XL, and I hope they can bounce back, but IMO they need to evolve a bit.
Unfortunatelly, I don't think making new entries in those non-Zelda, non-Mario franchises would be enough to turn the tides for the Wii U. If it didn't work for GameCube, it probably wouldn't work for Wii U either. Of course I'd like continuations of those old franchises as much as most Nintendo fans would, but the majority pretty much already decided that the Wii U is just not that desirable system. It will probably turn out another "Nintendo exclusives" type of system. imo, it just came too late to the party. Would it release a few years earlier, it'd get more attention, imo.

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Re: More woe for nintendo

Post by gman72 » Fri May 09, 2014 11:30 pm

Nintendo make more money from the Pokemon franchise annually than a small countries GDP, they are not in any company crippling financial trouble, far from it.
WiiU sales are clearly way below expectations but if anyone believes Nintendo are financially troubled because of this fact they are quite mistaken.
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Re: More woe for nintendo

Post by killbot » Sat May 10, 2014 12:13 am

The key difference between GC and Wii U is that they made money on the GC. In fact despite coming third that gen they actually made more money on hardware sales than either of their main rivals because both PS2 and Xbox were initially sold at a loss (not sure about DC, I would guess that was too given the extra gubbins like the bundled modem).

They haven't gone that way with Wii U which is a shame because if they had then even the console's modest sales so far (6 million-odd) would probably be enough to keep them in the black. But as the cost of components comes down there will hopefully be a tipping point where they can start turning a profit on the console, or at least reducing the loss. Arguably the gamepad is the console's biggest issue, because not only are developers not finding interesting things to do with it but it's the need to bundle a tablet with every Wii U sold that's stoppint them sell the machine at a profit. The problem is, it's hard for them to turn back now. The smart move is to ditch the gamepad, start bundling the console with a pro controller and slash the price but that gives the problem of the games (like Nintendo Land, Rayman Legends, Wonderful 101 and Zombi U) that need the gamepad. People would be a bit miffed to buy a new console and find several of the best games don't work with it.
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Re: More woe for nintendo

Post by outdated_gamer » Sat May 10, 2014 7:24 am

Sel Feena wrote:
outdated_gamer wrote:A realistic-looking Zelda or Metroid game could get a lot of attention too.
Metroid I could get behind, but I think a realistic-looking Zelda would just put me right off. It'd feel wrong to me somehow.
What I mean with realistic-looking is "fantasy realism" akin to the Wii U tech-demo. Art-style may not be the most important thing, but for many people it is important. And while I don't disapprove the artistic endeavours taken with Wind Waker and Skyward Sword, I do think the majority would prefer a more realistic look to the cartoon look of those two. Basically a Ocarina of Time/Twilight Princess for modern times, but more epic and expansive than those two. Taking a hint or two from games like Dark Souls, The Witcher and even Assassin's Creed wouldn't hurt either.
killbot wrote:The key difference between GC and Wii U is that they made money on the GC. In fact despite coming third that gen they actually made more money on hardware sales than either of their main rivals because both PS2 and Xbox were initially sold at a loss (not sure about DC, I would guess that was too given the extra gubbins like the bundled modem).

They haven't gone that way with Wii U which is a shame because if they had then even the console's modest sales so far (6 million-odd) would probably be enough to keep them in the black. But as the cost of components comes down there will hopefully be a tipping point where they can start turning a profit on the console, or at least reducing the loss. Arguably the gamepad is the console's biggest issue, because not only are developers not finding interesting things to do with it but it's the need to bundle a tablet with every Wii U sold that's stoppint them sell the machine at a profit. The problem is, it's hard for them to turn back now. The smart move is to ditch the gamepad, start bundling the console with a pro controller and slash the price but that gives the problem of the games (like Nintendo Land, Rayman Legends, Wonderful 101 and Zombi U) that need the gamepad. People would be a bit miffed to buy a new console and find several of the best games don't work with it.
It really is strange that they were selling the system for a loss right out of the door. I don't think that ever happened before for Nintendo, despite the Wii U being the most expensive Nintendo system to date (NES, SNES, N64, NGC were all 199$ at launch, Wii was 249$, Wii U 299$ for basic and 349$ for deluxe model) and also it having somewhat dated technology inside (CPU tech dating literally back to the 90s, non HD controller screen, only 32 GB flash RAM storage memory) whereas the NES, SNES, N64 and NGC were all sporting some nice (if compromised) technology for the time.

Maybe the controller really is the root of it's problems, but I don't think getting rid of it now would be a wise move. I think they have to somehow convince people that it actually benefits the system and offers experiences that can't be found elsewhere. Maybe some unique strategic titles could be used to demonstrate that or something to do with "augmented reality". I think the potential is there but it's a question if they'll manage to impress the crowds. If not, they can always resort to pumping out as much quality software as they can (which was always their strong point, tbh).

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Re: More woe for nintendo

Post by silvergunner » Sat May 10, 2014 7:39 am

I think with the money Nintendo had made with the Wii they should of took a chance and made a really powerful console again to compete with their rivals. Then the big major franchises would of had no compromises when being converted. I also think Nintendo really need to sort their internet infrastructure out as they clearly lag in that department to.

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Re: More woe for nintendo

Post by gman72 » Sat May 10, 2014 7:58 am

I really don't think the game pad is the WiiUs problem. It you actually use it it's really cool, there is no reason for it to be any kind of problem.
I think it's lack of games or maybe... and this is just an assumption... the masses are moving away from Nintendos cartoony, rescue-the-princess kind of gaming ethos. Instead preferring that kind of gaming fix on a handheld device rather than on the big telly. I know a few multi-format games got out on the WiiU but most blokes want a 360/PS3/Xbone/PS4 to play online with their mates and most kids own a 3DS. Obviously this doesn't apply to everyone, I myself really enjoy my WiiU as do lots of people on the forum but I'm talking about the masses here. Maybe the WiiU is a victim of gaming trends and has become the odd relation left out in the cold.
The WiiU hardware itself is excellent, the game pad is excellent, the games are too few and far between, and coupled with Nintys style of gaming trends could be turning the masses away. Otherwise how do you explain the machines poor showing?
The new Mario Kart should be an interesting case in point. How it sells could be very telling for the long term future of the machine. Also if the new Smash Bros sells more on 3DS than WiiU this is also very telling. Could it be that a lot of gamers have simply grown up and moved on to less twee, more gritty gaming? Personally I hope not but it's a struggle to figure out what's gone wrong sales-wise.
I think ultimately as long as there is a Pokemon there will be a Nintendo so worry ye not Ninty fans, but I'm just spitballing or brain storming if you will what's gone wrong with the WiiU.
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Re: More woe for nintendo

Post by outdated_gamer » Sat May 10, 2014 8:06 am

silvergunner wrote:I think with the money Nintendo had made with the Wii they should of took a chance and made a really powerful console again to compete with their rivals. Then the big major franchises would of had no compromises when being converted. I also think Nintendo really need to sort their internet infrastructure out as they clearly lag in that department to.
After the relative commercial failure of the GameCube it was less likely they would go down that path again. We can debate all we want, the fact is that there may not be place for a third direct competitor on the console front. They have to play their cards differenty, be it for good or bad.

All in all, I don't think just more capable hardware would resolve all the issues by itself. Nintendo was losing quite some ground on the console market ever since the NES, untill they found the "golden chicken" that was the Wii. If the Wii U failed, it failed because it didn't manage to bring over that large Wii userbase rather than because it didn't stack up to it's competitors. What we may think is subjective. :wink:

The only subject worth taking a closer inspection would be why exactly Nintendo was losing so much ground in the console area but remained successful in the handheld area.

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Re: More woe for nintendo

Post by outdated_gamer » Sat May 10, 2014 8:25 am

gman72 wrote:I really don't think the game pad is the WiiUs problem. It you actually use it it's really cool, there is no reason for it to be any kind of problem.
I think it's lack of games or maybe... and this is just an assumption... the masses are moving away from Nintendos cartoony, rescue-the-princess kind of gaming ethos. Instead preferring that kind of gaming fix on a handheld device rather than on the big telly. I know a few multi-format games got out on the WiiU but most blokes want a 360/PS3/Xbone/PS4 to play online with their mates and most kids own a 3DS. Obviously this doesn't apply to everyone, I myself really enjoy my WiiU as do lots of people on the forum but I'm talking about the masses here. Maybe the WiiU is a victim of gaming trends and has become the odd relation left out in the cold.
The WiiU hardware itself is excellent, the game pad is excellent, the games are too few and far between, and coupled with Nintys style of gaming trends could be turning the masses away. Otherwise how do you explain the machines poor showing?
The new Mario Kart should be an interesting case in point. How it sells could be very telling for the long term future of the machine. Also if the new Smash Bros sells more on 3DS than WiiU this is also very telling. Could it be that a lot of gamers have simply grown up and moved on to less twee, more gritty gaming? Personally I hope not but it's a struggle to figure out what's gone wrong sales-wise.
I think ultimately as long as there is a Pokemon there will be a Nintendo so worry ye not Ninty fans, but I'm just spitballing or brain storming if you will what's gone wrong with the WiiU.
That's kinda true. I think Nintendo's games are greatly playlable, well designed and all, but one would have to be blind not to notice that they cater primarily to a younger demographic. They don't really cover a plethora of genres and types of games that other systems offer, rather they are focused on their own niche. The issue becomes when portable devices become sufficient to the majority of users for those kind of experiences and when home systems are no longer seen as a necessarity for them. For sure, Nintendo themselves will have to adress issues like this if they want to improve their situation with hardware (and software) market performance.

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Re: More woe for nintendo

Post by Fightersmegamix » Sat May 10, 2014 9:09 am

Nintendo's only problem is they don't want to spend any money, no matter how much it costs them in the long run. The wii u is failing because of the confusing name, poor advertising and the pad, which although nice is not worth an extra £100 on each console. They would have been better off having better hardware that would have got at least some third party support. I don't think there's a move away from brighter graphics, if anything the opposite is happening.

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Re: More woe for nintendo

Post by pratty » Sat May 10, 2014 11:55 am

gman72 wrote:I really don't think the game pad is the WiiUs problem. It you actually use it it's really cool, there is no reason for it to be any kind of problem.
I think it's lack of games or maybe... and this is just an assumption... the masses are moving away from Nintendos cartoony, rescue-the-princess kind of gaming ethos. Instead preferring that kind of gaming fix on a handheld device rather than on the big telly. I know a few multi-format games got out on the WiiU but most blokes want a 360/PS3/Xbone/PS4 to play online with their mates and most kids own a 3DS. Obviously this doesn't apply to everyone, I myself really enjoy my WiiU as do lots of people on the forum but I'm talking about the masses here. Maybe the WiiU is a victim of gaming trends and has become the odd relation left out in the cold.
The WiiU hardware itself is excellent, the game pad is excellent, the games are too few and far between, and coupled with Nintys style of gaming trends could be turning the masses away. Otherwise how do you explain the machines poor showing?
The new Mario Kart should be an interesting case in point. How it sells could be very telling for the long term future of the machine. Also if the new Smash Bros sells more on 3DS than WiiU this is also very telling. Could it be that a lot of gamers have simply grown up and moved on to less twee, more gritty gaming? Personally I hope not but it's a struggle to figure out what's gone wrong sales-wise.
I think ultimately as long as there is a Pokemon there will be a Nintendo so worry ye not Ninty fans, but I'm just spitballing or brain storming if you will what's gone wrong with the WiiU.
I think you're largely right. Maybe the marketing hasn't drawn the "casuals" in like the Wii did. But the "core" gamers know full well what the Wii-U is, that's not the issue for them. I actually think most of them appreciate the merits of Nintendo's games, but they prioritise Xbox and Sony because that's where the majority of grittier games are to be found. They'd happily welcome the odd game like Mario 3D World on those systems, but aren't prepared to go and buy a console specifically for those games. While the Wii-U does and will have it's own exclusive mature games, just as the Wii did, it probably won't be in sufficient quanity to pull those gamers away from their X-boxes and Playstations.

Why do the grittier games rule? I think it has a lot to do with the living out a fantasy element. The popular games today aren't games simply about overcoming obstacles, solving puzzles and achieving a goal, like say a Mario or Pikmin game. For the mass market I'm not sure that's enough for many people. These grittier games obviously include that too, but these games allow the gamer to live out a fantasy of being a sports star, or a warrior, and some other general kind of macho bad ass. This appeals to both older and younger, disempowered children can pretend to be someone bigger and stronger and compete equally with other people online, while older gamers can escape their relatively mundane existance and lifestyle and relieve the stress of adult life. Super Mario 3D World has been getting rave reviews and called a GOTY contender, though it were a Space Marine shooter with online multiplayer of the same quality, I suspect we'd be talkling about a major system selling killer app.

Nintendo have games that can do that to an extent too, like Zelda and Metroid. You only have to look at the interest the mainstream gaming media had in Other M and Skyward Sword, even at a time when the Wii was often ridiculed. But they are only two franchises, and compared to dozens and dozens of darker, grittier and more mature alternatives on the other systems, they still seem childish and tame in comparison.

Personally I don't want Nintendo to change the tone of their games, I think it's good they continue to provide an alternative. Nor do I want them to abandon hardware as again the more alternatives the better. I do think though they need to court 3rd party developers better to provide the games they're lacking.

Also I don't think these recent finacial setbacks are undisputable proof of some notion of Nintendo now becoming irrelevent to modern gaming, where they should now just bow out because they're suddenly not making money hand over fist. Playstation and XBox have lost more than their fare share of money too, infact i'm fairly certain those brands are still in the red overall. Not to mention many studios that made games for those brands have also seen finacial trouble. The economic downturn isn't just Nintendo's problem.
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Re: More woe for nintendo

Post by killbot » Sat May 10, 2014 2:17 pm

outdated_gamer wrote:
silvergunner wrote:I think with the money Nintendo had made with the Wii they should of took a chance and made a really powerful console again to compete with their rivals. Then the big major franchises would of had no compromises when being converted. I also think Nintendo really need to sort their internet infrastructure out as they clearly lag in that department to.
After the relative commercial failure of the GameCube it was less likely they would go down that path again. We can debate all we want, the fact is that there may not be place for a third direct competitor on the console front. They have to play their cards differenty, be it for good or bad.

All in all, I don't think just more capable hardware would resolve all the issues by itself. Nintendo was losing quite some ground on the console market ever since the NES, untill they found the "golden chicken" that was the Wii. If the Wii U failed, it failed because it didn't manage to bring over that large Wii userbase rather than because it didn't stack up to it's competitors. What we may think is subjective. :wink:

The only subject worth taking a closer inspection would be why exactly Nintendo was losing so much ground in the console area but remained successful in the handheld area.
Indeed. Historically the market has struggled to sustain more than two major consoles, and when Nintendo tried to fight MS and Sony on their own ground with the GC they didn't come out of it terribly well. So they had to work out instead how to be an alternative to those machines, to do in many ways the polar opposite. Different control schemes, less emphasis on cutting-edge graphics and lots of family friendly games (aside from Viva Pinata the Xbox has virtually none, despite MS's various attempts, Sony is a bit better served in this area with LBP and a couple of others but it's still targeted primarily at men aged 18 and up).

For the DS and Wii, this approach worked. It hasn't worked so well this gen - 3DS has been a success but not on the scale of the DS and the Wii U is struggling to take off. For the next round I think Nintendo will go back to the drawing board and try to work out what else they can do, but I don't think a direct competitor to the Xbox and PS machines is likely. The kind of people who want those kind of games and experiences just don't buy Nintendo and haven't since the days of the SNES.

I'm not in love with the idea of Nintendo going multi-format. I think they are a company where the software and hardware divisions are absolutely intertwined and work together to create experiences like Super Mario 64, Wii Sports and the like. You'd lose that if they were working on other people's hardware.
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