What is wrong with a '7/10' review score?

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koopa42
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Re: What is wrong with a '7/10' review score?

Post by koopa42 » Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:21 am

The closest to 10 would be given to Doom by me, it's the closest to perfect IMO.

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Re: What is wrong with a '7/10' review score?

Post by Matt_B » Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:23 am

koopa42 wrote:There are many games I would have given a 10 until a conversation I had with a mate a few years back. He pointed out the danger of giving a game a 10 is that it theory it can never be bettered, I agreed and now only give my fave games a 9 or 9.5, the 10 rating doesn't/can't really exist (imo)
Yeah, but then the problem is that if you give a game a 9.5 that can't be bettered either, as you're never going to give a 10. :wink:

Anyway, a review is only a snapshot of your opinion at a given time. It's not like a horde of angry nerds will haul you over the coals for going back and changing your scores when something better comes along.

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Re: What is wrong with a '7/10' review score?

Post by koopa42 » Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:25 am

Matt_B wrote:
koopa42 wrote:There are many games I would have given a 10 until a conversation I had with a mate a few years back. He pointed out the danger of giving a game a 10 is that it theory it can never be bettered, I agreed and now only give my fave games a 9 or 9.5, the 10 rating doesn't/can't really exist (imo)
Yeah, but then the problem is that if you give a game a 9.5 that can't be bettered either, as you're never going to give a 10. :wink:

Anyway, a review is only a snapshot of your opinion at a given time. It's not like a horde of angry nerds will haul you over the coals for going back and changing your scores when something better comes along.
Wrong. You can (in theory) give up to a 9.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 etc etc if you are sticking to 10 being the top score, it's the 10 that you can't use.

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Re: What is wrong with a '7/10' review score?

Post by Matt_B » Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:33 am

koopa42 wrote:
Matt_B wrote:
koopa42 wrote:There are many games I would have given a 10 until a conversation I had with a mate a few years back. He pointed out the danger of giving a game a 10 is that it theory it can never be bettered, I agreed and now only give my fave games a 9 or 9.5, the 10 rating doesn't/can't really exist (imo)
Yeah, but then the problem is that if you give a game a 9.5 that can't be bettered either, as you're never going to give a 10. :wink:

Anyway, a review is only a snapshot of your opinion at a given time. It's not like a horde of angry nerds will haul you over the coals for going back and changing your scores when something better comes along.
Wrong. You can (in theory) give up to a 9.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 etc etc if you are sticking to 10 being the top score, it's the 10 that you can't use.
If you're that fussed, you could always pull a Spinal Tap and rate it 11.

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Re: What is wrong with a '7/10' review score?

Post by koopa42 » Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:37 am

I didn't say I was fussed and pointed out it was only my opinion a couple of times. I just thought I'd add a interesting bit into thread seeing as I used to give games 10 out of 10 if someone asked. Feel free to be giving games whatever you like out of whatever you like and of course the obligatory Spinal Tap bit which was always coming in this thread.

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Re: What is wrong with a '7/10' review score?

Post by Antiriad2097 » Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:03 am

The Laird wrote: on RVG a 7 is good, a 5 is average and 10 is an example of one of the best games on that specific system. This thread is about 7 being supposedly bad and when talking about RVG that couldn't be further from the truth.
Have you gone back and changed the ratings on loads of the reviews since they first appeared? Since (in my opinion) I'd agree many of the scores there were on the high side when I first visited. The reviews were valid enough, but the scores don't (or didn't) necessarily reflect that.

I'd go and dig out some examples, but can't be bothered just for the sake of this thread right now,especially since its so subjective.

[Edit] Laird, would you mind updating your profile so it has a link to RVG as your home page? Fair enough you may not want it in your sig, but it does make it more accessible if we can click your username to take us through to link.

[Edit2]Here we go then, even though I wasn't going to...

May Force Racing on DC. 8/10. At best its average. It looks ropey, it plays alright, but overall its decidedly average. 5/10 on a generous day since the visuals aren't as good as they should be on DC.

Angry Birds on MD. 6/10. Most players would only put the original down around that mark, but the shonky MD iteration with its lack of adequate physics is well below average. Certainly compared to the rest of the MD library, its a very low scorer. 3/10 for the effort of bothering to do it.

There's just so many 8/10 reviews its hard to take seriously.
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Re: What is wrong with a '7/10' review score?

Post by TwoHeadedBoy » Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:41 am

koopa42 wrote:There are many games I would have given a 10 until a conversation I had with a mate a few years back. He pointed out the danger of giving a game a 10 is that it theory it can never be bettered, I agreed and now only give my fave games a 9 or 9.5, the 10 rating doesn't/can't really exist (imo)
I'd agree with that - even when I was 11 and saw Sonic The Comic give WipEout on the Saturn 99%, I thought it was ridiculous. Then all these years later and we have Retro Gamer giving Mario Galaxy 2 a whole 100% - times never change :roll:
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Re: What is wrong with a '7/10' review score?

Post by Matt_B » Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:50 am

koopa42 wrote:I didn't say I was fussed and pointed out it was only my opinion a couple of times. I just thought I'd add a interesting bit into thread seeing as I used to give games 10 out of 10 if someone asked. Feel free to be giving games whatever you like out of whatever you like and of course the obligatory Spinal Tap bit which was always coming in this thread.
Sorry, if that wasn't clear but I was just referring to the hypothetical example you gave of a 9.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999.

Anyone who goes that far has probably lost sight of what a review score is supposed to be. I don't think I'd even bother with half marks myself, but there's room for disagreement on all these things.

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Re: What is wrong with a '7/10' review score?

Post by pratty » Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:17 am

I have never taken a score of 5/5 or 10/10 as a literally 'perfect' game, to me it just means the game belongs in the highest tier.
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Re: What is wrong with a '7/10' review score?

Post by Matt_B » Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:41 am

pratty wrote:I have never taken a score of 5/5 or 10/10 as a literally 'perfect' game, to me it just means the game belongs in the highest tier.
Yep, surely it can just mean that a game is in the top fifth or the top tenth respectively?

Even 100% scores shouldn't be that rare on systems where there are thousands of games. At least so long as you take it to mean that a game is just in the top percentile rather the greatest of all time.

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Re: What is wrong with a '7/10' review score?

Post by The Laird » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:26 am

Antiriad2097 wrote:
The Laird wrote: on RVG a 7 is good, a 5 is average and 10 is an example of one of the best games on that specific system. This thread is about 7 being supposedly bad and when talking about RVG that couldn't be further from the truth.
Have you gone back and changed the ratings on loads of the reviews since they first appeared? Since (in my opinion) I'd agree many of the scores there were on the high side when I first visited. The reviews were valid enough, but the scores don't (or didn't) necessarily reflect that.

I'd go and dig out some examples, but can't be bothered just for the sake of this thread right now,especially since its so subjective.

[Edit] Laird, would you mind updating your profile so it has a link to RVG as your home page? Fair enough you may not want it in your sig, but it does make it more accessible if we can click your username to take us through to link.

[Edit2]Here we go then, even though I wasn't going to...

May Force Racing on DC. 8/10. At best its average. It looks ropey, it plays alright, but overall its decidedly average. 5/10 on a generous day since the visuals aren't as good as they should be on DC.

Angry Birds on MD. 6/10. Most players would only put the original down around that mark, but the shonky MD iteration with its lack of adequate physics is well below average. Certainly compared to the rest of the MD library, its a very low scorer. 3/10 for the effort of bothering to do it.

There's just so many 8/10 reviews its hard to take seriously.
I removed all the details on my profile when I decided to take a break from this forum for a few weeks. I removed my sig because people kept saying it was spammy.

To answer your first question, none of the review scores have been changed at any point to my knowledge. Only 3 people have admin access and I am not aware of anyone changing any of them.

I didn't write the Mag Force review but I know the guy who did is a huge Dreamcast fanboy, that said though I really like that game myself and would probably give it a solid 7. As for Angry Birds, I actually really enjoy the real thing but prefer playing it with a joypad. I think the pure amusement value of the game and the fact it was ported to the Mega Drive influenced the score I gave it. Like most people have said though review scores are subjective.

We currently have reviews by 11 different people there (with a few more just signing up to write some) but we all follow the same structure. Firstly the reviews are written for that machine, so you compare a game against others on the same system not games on other formats. When people do reviews it is actually really hard to get them to review rubbish games, as most people just want to write about the games they love. When we get a batch of reviews submitted to the site it's not unusual to find them all 7/10 or above, I have been trying to get people to review more rubbish games but it's hard work! We had one guy (who will remain nameless) who submitted 10 SNES reviews and 6 of the games he rated 10/10 with 3 getting a 9 and a single 8! He didn't seem to understand why they were not balanced! Anyway, in case you are interested the scores there are judged as follows:

1 - Abysmal and unplayable.
2 - Terrible
3 - Pretty awful
4 - Below average, let down in too many areas.
5 - Average
6 - Above average, lacking in key areas.
7 - Good.
8 - Very good
9 - Excellent
10 - An example of one of the system's best games.

That structure was not made up by me or anyone else, it was decided upon by the initial group of reviewers we had. We talked about how we thought games should be rated and all came to a common agreement on this. What scores people give when they write the reviews is up to them, people are more than welcome to question them, agree or disagree. That is why there are feedback threads for all the reviews there for people to talk about them or write their own. Personally when I read reviews I base whether or not I am going to buy a game on the text rather than the score, if it sounds like the kind of game I will enjoy or not. We did actually consider not giving scores at all at one point, in Homebrew Heroes magazine we did just that - no games are scored.

Anyway I don't want this thread to be taken over by talking about another forum so I will shut up now. Hope that answers your queries :D
Last edited by The Laird on Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What is wrong with a '7/10' review score?

Post by PlodMadLoon » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:29 am

Amiga Power, on ratings systems:

http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/ap2/info/marks.html

Personally, I'm of the view that percentage scale (1% to 100%) and 10 points (1/10 to 10/10) are inelegant ways to mark anything. The five point system is my review score of choice, because it's easy to understand and largely easy to use: 1 is a Bad Thing, 5 is Something Exceptional, and the remaining three marks in between are representative of quality on that scale (a 4 is a Good Thing, 3 is specifically down the middle and 2 is something with flaws but which isn't bottom of the barrel awful).

Although truthfully, all marking systems have got their pros and cons. :)

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Re: What is wrong with a '7/10' review score?

Post by Antiriad2097 » Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:07 pm

Thanks for the detailed response Laird, the theoretical ratings do seem sound. Its a shame that by your own admission they're not being stuck to, skewing things upwards as this thread suggests is typical.
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Re: What is wrong with a '7/10' review score?

Post by The Laird » Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:59 pm

Antiriad2097 wrote:Thanks for the detailed response Laird, the theoretical ratings do seem sound. Its a shame that by your own admission they're not being stuck to, skewing things upwards as this thread suggests is typical.
Interestingly I took a snapshot of one section, all written by the same reviewer and out of 70 games the scores broke down as:

1/10 - 1 game
2/10 - 3 games
3/10 - 4 games
4/10 - 8 games
5/10 - 15 games
6/10 - 7 games
7/10 - 11 games
8/10 - 12 games
9/10 - 7 games
10/10 - 2 games

Make of that what you will but I think it turns out to be quite balanced.
Last edited by The Laird on Fri Feb 21, 2014 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What is wrong with a '7/10' review score?

Post by paranoid marvin » Fri Feb 21, 2014 2:30 pm

koopa42 wrote:There are many games I would have given a 10 until a conversation I had with a mate a few years back. He pointed out the danger of giving a game a 10 is that it theory it can never be bettered, I agreed and now only give my fave games a 9 or 9.5, the 10 rating doesn't/can't really exist (imo)

The best thing to do really is not give a score.The only problem then though is that people will ignore the review!

Is there anyone here who doesn't/didn't look at the final score before rading the review? Even back in the day, the reviews of Smashes/high % games would always get read first.

In some mags the best reviews were for the lowest scoring games. Amiga Power never held back , and if a game was censored we all knew about it. (unless it was Cannon Fodder 2 of course!)
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