Is the Atari Jaguar the most underrated console system?

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Lost Dragon
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Re: Is the Atari Jaguar the most underrated console system?

Post by Lost Dragon » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:23 pm

Matt_B wrote:
Lost Dragon wrote:It just seemed like the Atari from the ST days..ohh sorry, you've only a single-sided drive, you need a double-sided drive now...ohh, sorry you just bought a 520STFM Discovery Pack, we're phasing that out, replacing it with the STe.Seemed Atari just wanted me to keep shelling out, so it could compete with the competition, not that Sega were much different in that regard it has to be said!.
Yep. Being an Atari ST owner was probably the single biggest factor that put me off the Jaguar. It was a great little machine but it just wasn't getting the sort of support that it deserved, and I could see exactly the same thing was likely to happen with the Jaguar. Millions of others probably did too.

I really should'nt have jumped in so soon with buying a Jaguar, had been through both the ST and Lynx years, but nope, went straight in.

I'd even followed the Falcon fiasco to a degree, never saw anything much on it, in terms of advertising outside of specialist press and a brief mention in Games Master Magazine when they compared it to the A1200 and mentioned Space Junk was coming for it.

Sega and Nintendo ensured MD/SNES were huge, thanks to intense marketing, very strong internal and 3rd party software support.Atari really needed to ensure they did the same, as much as they could with the limited funds they had, if nothing else they should have heeded the 'warnings' the press put out, even before machine launched-things like Raiden, Dino Dudes, Crescent Galaxy were just not good enough for the hardware they'd been hyping, nor the consumer.

C.Flag and K.Ninja had to be bloody amazing to compete with V.Racing on a MD with SVP chip, benchmark set there and Street Fighter 2 on SNES/MD as public+Press alike expected far better on '64 bit' hardware.

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Re: Is the Atari Jaguar the most underrated console system?

Post by Lost Dragon » Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:05 pm

The Laird wrote:
gman72 wrote:Its fine that you don't agree with me, a difference of opinion makes for a healthy debate. :D Obviously I got the opinion that the Jag is often talked about here in hushed revered tones that the machine simply does not deserve from reading most of your posts and those of other fans of the machine. I shouldn't have to spell that out to you as I said the words "on this forum" and the fact that you yourself are one of the biggest fans of the Jag on this forum should make it obvious that you yourself are one of the biggest exponents of the hushed revered tones of which I speak. Again, and I wish I did not have to keep affirming this but I feel I have to when discussing the shortcomings of the Jag with someone such as yourself, you and the Jags other fans on this forum are as entitled to your opinions as anyone else. :D
I was highly critical of the Jaguar and Atari in my article for RG, perhaps too much as even Darran was surprised it was not more "positive" given that it was a celebration piece for the machines 20th anniversary.

That is what made me laugh when several people here called it fanboyish, just proved they hadn't even read it and were just making assumptions based on the fact I like the machine.

There are far more things wrong with the Jaguar (and Atari's handling of it) than are right with it and I would never even suggest it's one of the best consoles ever or any such nonsense. It's an interesting system, with a clever design that could (being the operative word) have been great if (and that is a big if) it had been handled differently.
:wink: speaking as a long term reader/subscriber, i personally found the article very well balanced, however i can see some 'areas' where confusion might just creep in;

Jaguar Raiden was indeed far superior to the 16 bit versions, but given that it's running on '64 bit' hardware, it should have been a doddle for the hardware.Mentioned it elsewhere, but a lot of the UK press were astounded to see it on the hardware, let alone with a dirty great 'ST-style' border down the side.No slowdown or sprite-flicker is what was expected from the hardware, so maybe it appearing under headline of 'stunning conversions' might have left some wondering what was meant?.

But full credit, the text of main article does mention press and consumers not being impressed by seeing MD/SNES games on the format, just the caption and choice of game seemed to go again'st main article here.

You used a great mix of balanced quotes, with Fred Gill reflecting on dire situation Atari were in, Wayne Smithson talking of how difficult it was to adjust for coding for Parallel Processing etc.

The Jaguars somewhat 'unfair' reputation for having bad games, personally feel reality was ratio of great-to-awful created that, being so biased as it was towards the average-to-awful mark.

Your open about Fight For Life (which is more than some reviewers of the game i've read, lol) and how sadly some of the best games (ISII, WTR and Zero 5) arrived far too late (don't personally think Worms arriving earlier would have had much of an impact).

Think it's the ending text that perhaps gave it a fanboy taste to a few, i know it's not your view, but that of David Wightman, but when he talks of Jaguar being the last creative platform were creators were in control of the hardware, eyes did roll, mine included.Sony took massive flak from coders for restricting them to a very rigid O.S, so with PS2 and PS3 they let coders 'code to the metal' and then faced massive flak as they were difficult to code for.Plus Jeff free to create on NUON (Tempest 3000), then PC, then 360 with XBLA and currently working on PS Vita.So he went from strength to strength after leaving the Jaguar and it's hard to go with David's vibe about Sony creating bland titles when Jeff's currently working on their hardware.Think this text needed some balance, but guess you were restricted in terms of word count?.

David should really ask any developer about the Playstation era and how the revenue generated from these 'bland titles' allowed them to fund the creation of the niche titles, before he gets on his moral high horse.... :lol:

As for the VLM, well as we've mentioned on here before, MS wanted Jeff doing it on original Xbox, but Jeff missed the email, hence it not being done until the 360.

David's quotes and Raiden under headline of stunning...did raise an eyebrow here, but the article was, overall, very well balanced.

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Re: Is the Atari Jaguar the most underrated console system?

Post by Megamixer » Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:12 pm

I feel compelled to mention that the only thing I disliked about the Jag hardware was the way in which the different ports on the back of the machine were just bare, exposed PCB connections. That slightly horrified me when I first hooked it up with the cables.

Is there any design-related story to go with that? I would have though that some sort of protective plastic plate could have fitted on the back casing to make things look a bit more sensible.
Retro is a state of mind, and cares not for your puny concepts like dates and calendars.

Lost Dragon
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Re: Is the Atari Jaguar the most underrated console system?

Post by Lost Dragon » Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:15 pm

Megamixer wrote:I feel compelled to mention that the only thing I disliked about the Jag hardware was the way in which the different ports on the back of the machine were just bare, exposed PCB connections. That slightly horrified me when I first hooked it up with the cables.

Is there any design-related story to go with that? I would have though that some sort of protective plastic plate could have fitted on the back casing to make things look a bit more sensible.
Would assume the 'bare-board' approach worked out cheaper, Atari being as cash-strapped as they were, looking to save money where ever possible?.

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The Laird
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Re: Is the Atari Jaguar the most underrated console system?

Post by The Laird » Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:21 pm

"Stunning conversions" was not my words. I was simply asked to list what I considered the 5 best conversions, NBA Jam:TE was the game missed out. Raiden takes the arcade version, adds some new music and extra detail/animations and keeps the same screen ratio (which why they put in the side bar). So in my opinion it was a very good arcade conversion, I was a big fan of the original game.

David's comment was put in to give people something to talk about, I knew it was controversial and was in two minds whether to include it. But as I said, I thought it would make an interesting talking point and, in a way, I was right. I didn't expect to be accused of making it up, putting there on purpose or of it being my own words though, but there we go. We live and learn, I will refrain from including controversial quotes in the future.

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Re: Is the Atari Jaguar the most underrated console system?

Post by The Laird » Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:27 pm

Megamixer wrote:I feel compelled to mention that the only thing I disliked about the Jag hardware was the way in which the different ports on the back of the machine were just bare, exposed PCB connections. That slightly horrified me when I first hooked it up with the cables.

Is there any design-related story to go with that? I would have though that some sort of protective plastic plate could have fitted on the back casing to make things look a bit more sensible.
They doubled up as cooling vents, the Jaguar chips get very hot.

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Re: Is the Atari Jaguar the most underrated console system?

Post by Megamixer » Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:30 pm

The Laird wrote:
Megamixer wrote:I feel compelled to mention that the only thing I disliked about the Jag hardware was the way in which the different ports on the back of the machine were just bare, exposed PCB connections. That slightly horrified me when I first hooked it up with the cables.

Is there any design-related story to go with that? I would have though that some sort of protective plastic plate could have fitted on the back casing to make things look a bit more sensible.
They doubled up as cooling vents, the Jaguar chips get very hot.
Ah. Thanks for the info. Nice to know that there was actually a reason of sorts after all.
Retro is a state of mind, and cares not for your puny concepts like dates and calendars.

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Re: Is the Atari Jaguar the most underrated console system?

Post by DPrinny » Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:32 pm

The Laird wrote:
Megamixer wrote:I feel compelled to mention that the only thing I disliked about the Jag hardware was the way in which the different ports on the back of the machine were just bare, exposed PCB connections. That slightly horrified me when I first hooked it up with the cables.

Is there any design-related story to go with that? I would have though that some sort of protective plastic plate could have fitted on the back casing to make things look a bit more sensible.
They doubled up as cooling vents, the Jaguar chips get very hot.
Can it be used to fry an egg?

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Re: Is the Atari Jaguar the most underrated console system?

Post by RodimusPrime » Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:50 pm

Lost Dragon wrote:
The Laird wrote:
gman72 wrote:Its fine that you don't agree with me, a difference of opinion makes for a healthy debate. :D Obviously I got the opinion that the Jag is often talked about here in hushed revered tones that the machine simply does not deserve from reading most of your posts and those of other fans of the machine. I shouldn't have to spell that out to you as I said the words "on this forum" and the fact that you yourself are one of the biggest fans of the Jag on this forum should make it obvious that you yourself are one of the biggest exponents of the hushed revered tones of which I speak. Again, and I wish I did not have to keep affirming this but I feel I have to when discussing the shortcomings of the Jag with someone such as yourself, you and the Jags other fans on this forum are as entitled to your opinions as anyone else. :D
I was highly critical of the Jaguar and Atari in my article for RG, perhaps too much as even Darran was surprised it was not more "positive" given that it was a celebration piece for the machines 20th anniversary.

That is what made me laugh when several people here called it fanboyish, just proved they hadn't even read it and were just making assumptions based on the fact I like the machine.

There are far more things wrong with the Jaguar (and Atari's handling of it) than are right with it and I would never even suggest it's one of the best consoles ever or any such nonsense. It's an interesting system, with a clever design that could (being the operative word) have been great if (and that is a big if) it had been handled differently.
:wink: speaking as a long term reader/subscriber, i personally found the article very well balanced, however i can see some 'areas' where confusion might just creep in;

Jaguar Raiden was indeed far superior to the 16 bit versions, but given that it's running on '64 bit' hardware, it should have been a doddle for the hardware.Mentioned it elsewhere, but a lot of the UK press were astounded to see it on the hardware, let alone with a dirty great 'ST-style' border down the side.No slowdown or sprite-flicker is what was expected from the hardware, so maybe it appearing under headline of 'stunning conversions' might have left some wondering what was meant?.

But full credit, the text of main article does mention press and consumers not being impressed by seeing MD/SNES games on the format, just the caption and choice of game seemed to go again'st main article here.

You used a great mix of balanced quotes, with Fred Gill reflecting on dire situation Atari were in, Wayne Smithson talking of how difficult it was to adjust for coding for Parallel Processing etc.

The Jaguars somewhat 'unfair' reputation for having bad games, personally feel reality was ratio of great-to-awful created that, being so biased as it was towards the average-to-awful mark.

Your open about Fight For Life (which is more than some reviewers of the game i've read, lol) and how sadly some of the best games (ISII, WTR and Zero 5) arrived far too late (don't personally think Worms arriving earlier would have had much of an impact).

Think it's the ending text that perhaps gave it a fanboy taste to a few, i know it's not your view, but that of David Wightman, but when he talks of Jaguar being the last creative platform were creators were in control of the hardware, eyes did roll, mine included.Sony took massive flak from coders for restricting them to a very rigid O.S, so with PS2 and PS3 they let coders 'code to the metal' and then faced massive flak as they were difficult to code for.Plus Jeff free to create on NUON (Tempest 3000), then PC, then 360 with XBLA and currently working on PS Vita.So he went from strength to strength after leaving the Jaguar and it's hard to go with David's vibe about Sony creating bland titles when Jeff's currently working on their hardware.Think this text needed some balance, but guess you were restricted in terms of word count?.

David should really ask any developer about the Playstation era and how the revenue generated from these 'bland titles' allowed them to fund the creation of the niche titles, before he gets on his moral high horse.... :lol:

As for the VLM, well as we've mentioned on here before, MS wanted Jeff doing it on original Xbox, but Jeff missed the email, hence it not being done until the 360.

David's quotes and Raiden under headline of stunning...did raise an eyebrow here, but the article was, overall, very well balanced.

the last console that let people be creative really bothered me as well.

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Re: Is the Atari Jaguar the most underrated console system?

Post by Lost Dragon » Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:57 pm

The Laird wrote:"Stunning conversions" was not my words. I was simply asked to list what I considered the 5 best conversions, NBA Jam:TE was the game missed out. Raiden takes the arcade version, adds some new music and extra detail/animations and keeps the same screen ratio (which why they put in the side bar). So in my opinion it was a very good arcade conversion, I was a big fan of the original game.

David's comment was put in to give people something to talk about, I knew it was controversial and was in two minds whether to include it. But as I said, I thought it would make an interesting talking point and, in a way, I was right. I didn't expect to be accused of making it up, putting there on purpose or of it being my own words though, but there we go. We live and learn, I will refrain from including controversial quotes in the future.
well, not being 'privvy' to the design process of a RG article, i can only give my impressions from a readers point of view and i'd yet to see Jaguar Raiden and stunning used together in any magazine article prior to the one in RG. :wink: No matter how good a conversion, it really did feel out of place on a 64 bit console.Too old and did nothing to showcase the hardware, something as i mentioned earlier on here, Atari was busy telling the press, they were working hard to ensure games being developed would do.So sure you can see how some could read it as being just a tad biased towards Jaguar, mind you, in fairness, not exactly spoilt for choice on Jaguar for Arcade Conversions....

Not sure who accused you of making David's words your own or making it up, came across very clear to myself you were quoting him, these were his views etc.

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Re: Is the Atari Jaguar the most underrated console system?

Post by RodimusPrime » Fri Jan 17, 2014 3:03 pm

Lost Dragon wrote:
The Laird wrote:"Stunning conversions" was not my words. I was simply asked to list what I considered the 5 best conversions, NBA Jam:TE was the game missed out. Raiden takes the arcade version, adds some new music and extra detail/animations and keeps the same screen ratio (which why they put in the side bar). So in my opinion it was a very good arcade conversion, I was a big fan of the original game.

David's comment was put in to give people something to talk about, I knew it was controversial and was in two minds whether to include it. But as I said, I thought it would make an interesting talking point and, in a way, I was right. I didn't expect to be accused of making it up, putting there on purpose or of it being my own words though, but there we go. We live and learn, I will refrain from including controversial quotes in the future.
well, not being 'privvy' to the design process of a RG article, i can only give my impressions from a readers point of view and i'd yet to see Jaguar Raiden and stunning used together in any magazine article prior to the one in RG. :wink: No matter how good a conversion, it really did feel out of place on a 64 bit console.Too old and did nothing to showcase the hardware, something as i mentioned earlier on here, Atari was busy telling the press, they were working hard to ensure games being developed would do.So sure you can see how some could read it as being just a tad biased towards Jaguar, mind you, in fairness, not exactly spoilt for choice on Jaguar for Arcade Conversions....

Not sure who accused you of making David's words your own or making it up, came across very clear to myself you were quoting him, these were his views etc.
That was me, I did not accuse him of making it up or they were his own words. I accused him of influencing the way the conversation went. my reasoning being, the Laird several times accused the PS of introducing bland sterile games and being the introduction of everything he dislikes and that the Jag let developers be creative. Then in an article he writes, the interviewee expresses the exact same sentiment word for word. How am I supposed to come to any other conclusion.

The very concept of the jag being gamings last bastion of creativity is ludicrous and such a silly statement.

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Re: Is the Atari Jaguar the most underrated console system?

Post by Lost Dragon » Fri Jan 17, 2014 3:05 pm

The Laird wrote:
Liamh1982 wrote:Interesting point regarding emulation - Saturn emulation has come on leaps and bounds in the last few years (almost entirely due to SSF) despite architecture almost as convoluted and complex as the Jag's.

The difference is that a lot of people want a good Saturn emu and want it to run a wide range of games.

It seems with the Jag that there's an attitude of "let's just get the usual suspects playable and balls to the rest".
Not really, Jag chipset is a lot more complicated than the Saturn - it has no CPU for a start.

The second part is also untrue, many of the Jag's best/most well known games don't work in emulation at all. Virtual Jaguar is the most competent of the 4 but still cannot play Doom, Power Drive Rally, Super Burnout, Iron Soldier or Ultra Vortek.
Just looking at Saturn hardware:

2X SH-2's
VDP1
VDP2
Processor controller and LSI for graphics.
Saturn Custom Sound Processor (SCSP) which contains a Yamaha FH-1 DSP
System Control Unit@ 14.3 Mhz-connects the systems 3 buses.
SH-1 processor for CD Drive
Sound CPU-Motorola 68EC00@22.6 Mhz

Not to mention the system manager and perpheral control, a 4bit Hitachi chip (and Sony made a part of Saturn hardware-The RGB Encoder).

Jaguar really more complicated? :?

You had what:Tom, Jerry chipsets, a blitter, object processor and a 68000, what am i missing?

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Re: Is the Atari Jaguar the most underrated console system?

Post by gman72 » Fri Jan 17, 2014 3:09 pm

The Laird wrote:
gman72 wrote:Its fine that you don't agree with me, a difference of opinion makes for a healthy debate. :D Obviously I got the opinion that the Jag is often talked about here in hushed revered tones that the machine simply does not deserve from reading most of your posts and those of other fans of the machine. I shouldn't have to spell that out to you as I said the words "on this forum" and the fact that you yourself are one of the biggest fans of the Jag on this forum should make it obvious that you yourself are one of the biggest exponents of the hushed revered tones of which I speak. Again, and I wish I did not have to keep affirming this but I feel I have to when discussing the shortcomings of the Jag with someone such as yourself, you and the Jags other fans on this forum are as entitled to your opinions as anyone else. :D
I was highly critical of the Jaguar and Atari in my article for RG, perhaps too much as even Darran was surprised it was not more "positive" given that it was a celebration piece for the machines 20th anniversary.

That is what made me laugh when several people here called it fanboyish, just proved they hadn't even read it and were just making assumptions based on the fact I like the machine.

There are far more things wrong with the Jaguar (and Atari's handling of it) than are right with it and I would never even suggest it's one of the best consoles ever or any such nonsense. It's an interesting system, with a clever design that could (being the operative word) have been great if (and that is a big if) it had been handled differently.
Fair enough, its your opinion im not out to argue with you.
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Re: Is the Atari Jaguar the most underrated console system?

Post by HalcyonDaze00 » Fri Jan 17, 2014 3:14 pm

the last console that let people be creative really bothered me as well.
indeed, it was one of the most ludicrous statements the mag has ever published, no question about that, but on the plus side it added a touch of genuine comedy to the article.

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Re: Is the Atari Jaguar the most underrated console system?

Post by RodimusPrime » Fri Jan 17, 2014 3:20 pm

HalcyonDaze00 wrote:
the last console that let people be creative really bothered me as well.
indeed, it was one of the most ludicrous statements the mag has ever published, no question about that, but on the plus side it added a touch of genuine comedy to the article.
Indeed, considering its releases were as " by the numbers " as you could possiby see.

we need virtua fighter, ok lets di fight for life.
Mortal Kombat is popular = Kasumi ninja
Mariokart = atari karts.

remakes of old arcade games that while fun have little depth = missile command, defender etc.

Trevor mcfur, a space shooter with animal characters = might as well have called it 2d starfox.

littered with 16bit ports.

where is this creativity.

as for PS1, yes the franchises are still going, but people seem to forget that at the time they were the first appearences and they had never been seen before and developers were experimenting with 3d and there was a load of creativity. The likes of Tombraider, and resident EVil may be rehashed and spawned many sequels but you need to see things in context. At the time they were fresh exciting and were doing things people had never sen before. Hardly bland sterile and corporate.

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