Is the Atari Jaguar the most underrated console system?

Discuss and discover all the great games of yesteryear!

Moderators: mknott, NickThorpe, lcarlson, Darran@Retro Gamer, MMohammed

User avatar
The Laird
Posts: 8496
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:01 am
Location: Luton
Contact:

Re: Is the Atari Jaguar the most underrated console system?

Post by The Laird » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:08 pm

Lost Dragon wrote:Highlander looks great (and little do i know ATARI are looking to split 1 game into 3 to maximise profit)
According to the guy who wrote it, Steve Mitchell of Lore Design, it was always planned as a trilogy. Second game was finished, third game was started.
Lost Dragon wrote:But i'm also thinking, hang on MD/SNES managed to fit MK3 and Primal Rage on cart, Jaguar carts are all about how much compressed data they can hold, so should be a doddle to fit games like MK3/Primal rage onto, i bet Atari are putting these onto CD just to ensure it has some killer exclusives!.
Nothing to do with Atari, Primal Rage was a 3rd party game by Time Warner - it was their choice to put it on CD.
gman72 wrote:its often spoken of on this forum in hushed, revered tones that it simply does not deserve but as ever everyone's opinions are their own and they are entitled to them. :D
Huh :shock: Whenever the Jag is mentioned on this forum it is usually in ridicule so no idea where you got that from.

User avatar
outdated_gamer
Posts: 2599
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:14 pm

Re: Is the Atari Jaguar the most underrated console system?

Post by outdated_gamer » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:10 pm

Lost Dragon wrote:
koopa42 wrote:
Lost Dragon wrote: but all they needed to do was establish the Jaguar as viable gaming platform, get cash coming in and prepare for the Jaguar II launch, learning lessons from their own platform and others
This. See MS with the original Xbox.
It really is that simple.With Xbox, MS saw Sony making massive inroads in the consumer market, PS2 was taking a fresh approach over PS1, with Sony promoting the PS2 as the one and only set top-box you'd need under your TV.Games, films, music, it would handle it all and with the Broadband adaptor, you would'nt even have to leave the house.

Ok, not quite like 'plugging into the Matrix' as barkiing mad Ken K.claimed, but MS knew it had to get it's own console out there to meet Sony on the field, before Sony steamrollered in and captured that market share.

Xbox was always going to loose money and lots of it, MS knew this, but all it had to do was establish the brand and get the online infastructure inplace, soon as that was done, it could be retired (killed off in it's prime) and they'd launch the next-generation hardware and get a headstart on Sony and then start making money and the plan worked.

Difference of course MS had the vast cash resources to take the hit, just as Sony had with the original PS1, Atari did'nt, but that again fell at Atari's feet.All very good suing Sega (and Sega themselves happy to take others to court over copyrights), but they'd screwed up on so many hardware platforms prior:5200, 7800, STe, Falcon, Lynx, Panther scrapped.

just struggling to grasp why history needs to be re-written on so many aspects.

Jaguar failed because of reasons dotted around in this forum, ditto for DC, the NES failed in UK, we've covered reasons why.There's no shame in admitting what went wrong and why, it's great for debate.
MS burnt a lot of cash on the Xbox and X360 though. Going for "cutting-edge" tech (for console standards) and taking a hit on the price ment that the original Xbox was never profitable (hence, like you said, they killed it off pretty fast) and it took a few years for X360 to become profitable. The Xbox One may not have "cutting-edge" tech anymore and costs considerably more but they're not taking any losses on the hardware this time around (even with the bundled Kinect, which was revealed to cost quite some).

It's worth noting that Sony also suffered big losses on the PS3 in the first few years. This may explain why the PS4 is the "antithesis" of the PS3 in terms of how it's designed. Basically they got rid of the expensive and exotic "Cell" CPU tech (replaced by a much more humble X86 mobile 8-core AMD CPU chip divided in two clustres - amusingly in this context, named "Jaguar" :wink: ), the exotic and split XDR RAM (replaced by a unified fast GDDR5 type 8 GB RAM), an aging GPU based on DX9 features (now a modern and high-end mobile GPU with AMD GCN technology and DX11 features) and gave it a faster blu-ray drive and bigger HDD (which both cost less now). The price was also lowered, going for 399$ launch price, giving it the edge over the higher priced Xbox One and not repeating the same "599 US Dollars" mistake again.

And speaking of Panther - that looked like it could have been pretty neat if they released it in due time. It looks like it could have taken on the MD and SNES, if well priced, marketed and supported. They could have delayed the Jaguar then too, upping it's specs and pitting it agaist the newer 32-bit CD systems like the Saturn and PS. But I guess that's just one of those "what ifs" again. :wink:

User avatar
koopa42
Posts: 5903
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 8:48 am
Location: Playing the victim apparently?

Re: Is the Atari Jaguar the most underrated console system?

Post by koopa42 » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:11 pm

The Laird wrote: Huh :shock: Whenever the Jag is mentioned on this forum it is usually in ridicule so no idea where you got that from.
Er. No. This thread shows that this forum could be capable of liking or loathing the Jag without ridicule, it's just opinion.

User avatar
The Laird
Posts: 8496
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:01 am
Location: Luton
Contact:

Re: Is the Atari Jaguar the most underrated console system?

Post by The Laird » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:14 pm

Liamh1982 wrote:Interesting point regarding emulation - Saturn emulation has come on leaps and bounds in the last few years (almost entirely due to SSF) despite architecture almost as convoluted and complex as the Jag's.

The difference is that a lot of people want a good Saturn emu and want it to run a wide range of games.

It seems with the Jag that there's an attitude of "let's just get the usual suspects playable and balls to the rest".
Not really, Jag chipset is a lot more complicated than the Saturn - it has no CPU for a start.

The second part is also untrue, many of the Jag's best/most well known games don't work in emulation at all. Virtual Jaguar is the most competent of the 4 but still cannot play Doom, Power Drive Rally, Super Burnout, Iron Soldier or Ultra Vortek.

User avatar
gman72
Posts: 8018
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:41 pm
Location: UK. Norfolk

Re: Is the Atari Jaguar the most underrated console system?

Post by gman72 » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:27 pm

The Laird wrote:
gman72 wrote:its often spoken of on this forum in hushed, revered tones that it simply does not deserve but as ever everyone's opinions are their own and they are entitled to them. :D
Huh :shock: Whenever the Jag is mentioned on this forum it is usually in ridicule so no idea where you got that from.
Its fine that you don't agree with me, a difference of opinion makes for a healthy debate. :D Obviously I got the opinion that the Jag is often talked about here in hushed revered tones that the machine simply does not deserve from reading most of your posts and those of other fans of the machine. I shouldn't have to spell that out to you as I said the words "on this forum" and the fact that you yourself are one of the biggest fans of the Jag on this forum should make it obvious that you yourself are one of the biggest exponents of the hushed revered tones of which I speak. Again, and I wish I did not have to keep affirming this but I feel I have to when discussing the shortcomings of the Jag with someone such as yourself, you and the Jags other fans on this forum are as entitled to your opinions as anyone else. :D
“To gain your own voice, you have to forget about having it heard.” —Allen Ginsberg, WD

Lost Dragon
Posts: 849
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 7:59 am

Re: Is the Atari Jaguar the most underrated console system?

Post by Lost Dragon » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:32 pm

Developers of Highlander said nothing about planning trilogy in previews i read, but they did praise Jaguar hardware, use of 65,000 colours etc.Last i heard it was to be 1 massive game, spread over several CD's, then Atari decided to release it as 3 seperate instalments.


Primal rage might have been Time warners choice to put on CD, but what about MK3 or Defender 2000? Jeff was never happy with atari telling him what to do with his game and all he planned, in terms of CD enhancements, were FMV interviews and historical data segments.

I mean when i look at the very 1st PR statements from Atari UK regarding Jaguar CD (Darryl Still) 'yes, we have CD units in development...we're working closely with developers to ensure that future peripherals (ie the CD drive) get the software that does them justice', all i can think of is that Battlemorph, Freelancer etc were the sort of games i expected to be out on CD only and i'd have welcomed more S.E's like Hoverstrike CD if they all turned out that well, but 2 Dragon's Lair games, Space Ace etc, thought i'd left that crap behind on MCD and no matter who decided to put the 2D sprite based fighters on CD, if Primal Rage was out on MD, SNES (and 32X?) on cart and MK 3 was out on SNES/MD on cart, i was expecting Jaguar to get them on cart as well.

It did so little to give me faith in buying a Jaguar CD, in fact it felt like a p*ss take.the base Jaguar, having been promised so many games, was now looking for me to spend even more money, just to get same games a stock MD had in cases of Primal Rage and MK3.

It just seemed like the Atari from the ST days..ohh sorry, you've only a single-sided drive, you need a double-sided drive now...ohh, sorry you just bought a 520STFM Discovery Pack, we're phasing that out, replacing it with the STe.Seemed Atari just wanted me to keep shelling out, so it could compete with the competition, not that Sega were much different in that regard it has to be said!.
Last edited by Lost Dragon on Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Lost Dragon
Posts: 849
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 7:59 am

Re: Is the Atari Jaguar the most underrated console system?

Post by Lost Dragon » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:38 pm

koopa42 wrote:
The Laird wrote: Huh :shock: Whenever the Jag is mentioned on this forum it is usually in ridicule so no idea where you got that from.
Er. No. This thread shows that this forum could be capable of liking or loathing the Jag without ridicule, it's just opinion.
This thread and 3DO/Jaguar are 20 thread have i feel shown just how much debate could be had regarding the Jaguar.Even if like myself you'd paid good money and stuuck with the format, you can look back on it's history and bring up the much bigger picture with the gaming insdustry and consumer view points.I like and dislike the Jaguar/Atari for what they got right and what they got wrong, it's a very interesting period in my gaming life.I'm happy to praise what Jaguar delivered and just as happy to report on what Atari and partners got wrong.

Surely it's a consumers 'right' to view an opinion on a past purchase?.Does'nt mean i 'rag' on Atari or the Jaguar.

Think we've had some very good points raised by all so far, long may the debate continue....

Lost Dragon
Posts: 849
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 7:59 am

Re: Is the Atari Jaguar the most underrated console system?

Post by Lost Dragon » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:47 pm

@outdated_gamer.MS admitted making the HDD as standard in the Xbox, 'killed' them in terms of just how much money the hardware was loosing them.I really do feel they killed it off in it's prime, Doom 3, Half Life 2, Far Cry really showed what it was capable of, let alone projects like Dead Space which were changed to 360/PS3.

Think with PS3 chipset's Sony had hoped they'd be used in a lot more industries than just gaming, know USA Military used a lot of them linked-up for the number crunching stuff (far cheaper to buy than dedicated super-computers) and would assume Sony wanted them used as powerful graphics workstations as well.

Panther-great hardware...on paper.In reality needed more memory and the bottlenecks in the system sorted out, but that would have meant more money being put in by Atari and...well, we know where this was going.

We do know Atari put Panther development on hold whilst they focused on the Lynx, thanks to interviews with Atari UK.

Lost Dragon
Posts: 849
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 7:59 am

Re: Is the Atari Jaguar the most underrated console system?

Post by Lost Dragon » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:49 pm

The Laird wrote:
Liamh1982 wrote:Interesting point regarding emulation - Saturn emulation has come on leaps and bounds in the last few years (almost entirely due to SSF) despite architecture almost as convoluted and complex as the Jag's.

The difference is that a lot of people want a good Saturn emu and want it to run a wide range of games.

It seems with the Jag that there's an attitude of "let's just get the usual suspects playable and balls to the rest".
Not really, Jag chipset is a lot more complicated than the Saturn - it has no CPU for a start.

The second part is also untrue, many of the Jag's best/most well known games don't work in emulation at all. Virtual Jaguar is the most competent of the 4 but still cannot play Doom, Power Drive Rally, Super Burnout, Iron Soldier or Ultra Vortek.
Saturn though had 2 CPU's and this was a key flaw, as data had to be shared between them, 1 was always waiting for the other, plus it's sound chip was incredible and then you had all the DSP's which Sega's own documentation and tools made little/no reference to, so it must have been a nightmare to emulate.

User avatar
Matt_B
Posts: 5532
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2007 5:30 am
Location: 5 minutes from the beach, 30 seconds from the pub

Re: Is the Atari Jaguar the most underrated console system?

Post by Matt_B » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:03 pm

Lost Dragon wrote:It just seemed like the Atari from the ST days..ohh sorry, you've only a single-sided drive, you need a double-sided drive now...ohh, sorry you just bought a 520STFM Discovery Pack, we're phasing that out, replacing it with the STe.Seemed Atari just wanted me to keep shelling out, so it could compete with the competition, not that Sega were much different in that regard it has to be said!.
Yep. Being an Atari ST owner was probably the single biggest factor that put me off the Jaguar. It was a great little machine but it just wasn't getting the sort of support that it deserved, and I could see exactly the same thing was likely to happen with the Jaguar. Millions of others probably did too.

User avatar
The Laird
Posts: 8496
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:01 am
Location: Luton
Contact:

Re: Is the Atari Jaguar the most underrated console system?

Post by The Laird » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:04 pm

Lost Dragon wrote:Primal rage might have been Time warners choice to put on CD, but what about MK3 or Defender 2000? Jeff was never happy with atari telling him what to do with his game and all he planned, in terms of CD enhancements, were FMV interviews and historical data segments.
MK3 was also a 3rd party game by Midway. Was originally going to be CD only, then it was later announced there would also be a cart version.

User avatar
The Laird
Posts: 8496
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:01 am
Location: Luton
Contact:

Re: Is the Atari Jaguar the most underrated console system?

Post by The Laird » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:10 pm

gman72 wrote:Its fine that you don't agree with me, a difference of opinion makes for a healthy debate. :D Obviously I got the opinion that the Jag is often talked about here in hushed revered tones that the machine simply does not deserve from reading most of your posts and those of other fans of the machine. I shouldn't have to spell that out to you as I said the words "on this forum" and the fact that you yourself are one of the biggest fans of the Jag on this forum should make it obvious that you yourself are one of the biggest exponents of the hushed revered tones of which I speak. Again, and I wish I did not have to keep affirming this but I feel I have to when discussing the shortcomings of the Jag with someone such as yourself, you and the Jags other fans on this forum are as entitled to your opinions as anyone else. :D
I was highly critical of the Jaguar and Atari in my article for RG, perhaps too much as even Darran was surprised it was not more "positive" given that it was a celebration piece for the machines 20th anniversary.

That is what made me laugh when several people here called it fanboyish, just proved they hadn't even read it and were just making assumptions based on the fact I like the machine.

There are far more things wrong with the Jaguar (and Atari's handling of it) than are right with it and I would never even suggest it's one of the best consoles ever or any such nonsense. It's an interesting system, with a clever design that could (being the operative word) have been great if (and that is a big if) it had been handled differently.

User avatar
Shinobi
Posts: 7639
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:33 am
Location: The Pride Lands

Re: Is the Atari Jaguar the most underrated console system?

Post by Shinobi » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:15 pm

A Jaguar thread and HalcyonDaze hasn't posted in it yet :wink:
"Crush the Old Order and CREATE A NEW SOCIETY!"

User avatar
The Laird
Posts: 8496
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:01 am
Location: Luton
Contact:

Re: Is the Atari Jaguar the most underrated console system?

Post by The Laird » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:18 pm

Shinobi wrote:A Jaguar thread and HalcyonDaze hasn't posted in it yet :wink:
You need to check again (page 2, 3/4 down) ;)

Lost Dragon
Posts: 849
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 7:59 am

Re: Is the Atari Jaguar the most underrated console system?

Post by Lost Dragon » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:18 pm

The Laird wrote:
Lost Dragon wrote:Primal rage might have been Time warners choice to put on CD, but what about MK3 or Defender 2000? Jeff was never happy with atari telling him what to do with his game and all he planned, in terms of CD enhancements, were FMV interviews and historical data segments.
MK3 was also a 3rd party game by Midway. Was originally going to be CD only, then it was later announced there would also be a cart version.
But then your talking of the Mega CD days, where things like Sensi, MK, Powermonger etc were out on cart and also CD.Unless Midway were planning to put all 3 games onto a Jag CD, what would the incentive be to buy game on CD over a standard cart.version?.Even MCD producers seemed to learn in a few cases you really needed to distance yourself between cart and CD versions of games, something like The Terminator S.E vs the cart version or Capcom's Final Fight having extras over the SNES/Arcade version.
It'd just made an even bigger mockery of message Atari UK were sending out, ohhh we cannot compete with Saturn/PS1 on cartridge, but just you wait till we get the Jaguar CD out, then you'll see the difference.

Plus does'nt Jaguar Primal Rage have smaller sprites than 32X version? thought machine was a 2D powerhouse?.It's almost as bad as 32X version of MK2 running slower than SNES version (and it lacks the FMV sequence/intro found on other CD versions?).

:lol:

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests