Is there room for the Wii U in this gen?

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killbot
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Re: Is there room for the Wii U in this gen?

Post by killbot » Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:28 pm

sirpigmeat wrote:I don't know i'd call the wiiU pad a gimmick... its pretty useful, playing two player and viewing maps, menus etc. People tend to call things gimmicky when they're new. The rumble feature and analogue stick on the N64 were gimmicks and now their standard features... I could see this pad becoming a standard thing too...
Also, looking at console release prices, adjusted for inflation, the wiiU is only $16 more expensive than the wii on release... I'm pretty sure this means the pad doesn't raise the price by 90 quid... but I could be wrong.
The gamepad has been extremely useful for me. Off-TV play is a godsend, having a browser I can use without having to turn on the PC or dig out my old laptop is good (although I now have a tablet so this function might be less useful than before) and it's good in that it declutters the HUD by moving things like maps and inventories onto the second screen. My issue is that since the initial round of games there's not been a lot of inventiveness in how it's used. Nintendo Land and ZombiU were really built around the pad in a way few games since have been, and Nintendo need to get better at showing us why this thing is so great.
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Re: Is there room for the Wii U in this gen?

Post by PlodMadLoon » Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:39 pm

The Laird wrote:
pratty wrote: Yeah, most games don't require anything more than a little wrist movement.

The Wii was awesome for FPSs, I found the Wiimote better than dual analog.
^^^ THIS!!!!
I'll third that motion. ;) I actually found the Wii remote to be incredibly intuitive for creating that kind of "mouse look" style control system, far more precise than the thumbsticks on other console's controllers. It was terrific in the Ghostbusters game.

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Re: Is there room for the Wii U in this gen?

Post by Misery » Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:57 pm

pratty wrote:
RodimusPrime wrote:
Misery wrote:It's Nintendo. They've been obsessed with gimmicks since.... well, since forever. ROB, for instance, or the Power Glove (and it's monstrosity of an assemblage that needed to go on your TV to work.... I have one of these, it's harder to set up than it looks!), or the E-Reader, or the Super Scope, or....

Really, I wish they'd get some different business ideals already. If that's the right term, I'm not entirely awake yet. Nintendo has always seemed to have this idea that if it doesnt somewhere have some sort of gimmick, it cant possibly be all that good or sell well. Unfortunately, with the Wii it wasnt just some sort of peripheral, it was the ENTIRE MACHINE.
Its just a pity Nintendo have not realised that all people ever wanted was a HD decent specced Nintendo machine with a standard controllers and updates of all the nintendo franchises eith a couple of new IPs.

Typical Nintendo overthinking things when all gamers wanted was something simple.... they should have just released the sytem with standard controller at a really low price and made sure it came with a few big hitters from the Nintnedo catalogue and IMO they would have much healthier sales figures.
Yeah but the Wii and Wii-U's distinctive features made them stand out against the competition.

If Nintendo just released a standard console people would be asking "have all the ideas dried up?", and spin it as a backwards step. The Wii controls weren't always well implemented, especially by 3rd parties, but they did provide unique gameplay experiences such as Skyward Sword, Wii Sports and Zack and Wiki, and in many people's opinion improved controls for games such as FPSs.

Actually, I think it probably might do them some good.

With the Wii..... they got lucky. Real lucky. The actual GAMES, aside from the first-party stuff, simply tended to sell badly (or not at all) in most cases. But the chosen gimmick just HAPPENED to fit this "for everyone including non-gamers" idea, and Wii Sports (and a few other similar games) also just happened to fit into a particular spot in the market, allowing the thing's sales to explode. But for the most part, the non-first-party games didnt just not explode in terms of sales, they instead fell over and just coughed a few times. And typically, in the past, their gimmicks actually never went anywhere. Pretty much every single gimmick other than the DS's screens that they'd come up with up to that point just.... well, they didnt even get to the "cough a few times" part, they just fell over and died. This gimmick was one of only two that REALLY did something for them, but....

If they'd NOT gone with a gimmick, the thing probably would have had a MUUUUUUUUCH better game library. One of the reasons why nobody wanted to buy 3rd party games for the thing was because the overwhelming majority of them were BAD. Really, really, REALLY bad. Devs had this typical-marketing-idiot sort of idea that "Hey, it's got MOTION CONTROLS. That's like, new and popular and stuff! I know! I have the best idea ever, NOBODY ELSE will ever think of this: What if we make a game.... THAT USES MOTION CONTROLS?!?!?!?!? Oh, the gameplay? Who gives a damn? Just put some shapes on screen and give the player a Wiimote, the rest doesnt matter! We'll print money with this!!!" and this had about the effect one would expect.


With the current stuff, it's not that the gimmicks make them stand out; now it's just that the gimmicks make them look weird (which was typically the case with all of Nintendo's previous gimmicks). The Wii's luck turned out to be a one time thing, and now it's gone back to just being awkward and strange as has always been the norm for these.

And the sad part? Nintendo will NEVER figure any of this out. All they REALLY have to do is what they used to do, way back when: Keep the silly gimmicks off to the side, and focus on making a quality product, specifically one with all sorts of good games on it. Work on more 1st-party products. Put more effort into 3rd-party relations, work with those guys too. Work on making the LIBRARY.... not the DEVICE.... unique and interesting. The NES, SNES, Gameboy.... these things did not NEED any silly gimmicks. And they werent just good consoles.... they were BLOODY AMAZING. Without gimmicks. It was all about quality back then, and somewhere along the lines, Nintendo's understanding of this seems to have just vanished totally.

killbot wrote:
sirpigmeat wrote:I don't know i'd call the wiiU pad a gimmick... its pretty useful, playing two player and viewing maps, menus etc. People tend to call things gimmicky when they're new. The rumble feature and analogue stick on the N64 were gimmicks and now their standard features... I could see this pad becoming a standard thing too...
Also, looking at console release prices, adjusted for inflation, the wiiU is only $16 more expensive than the wii on release... I'm pretty sure this means the pad doesn't raise the price by 90 quid... but I could be wrong.
The gamepad has been extremely useful for me. Off-TV play is a godsend, having a browser I can use without having to turn on the PC or dig out my old laptop is good (although I now have a tablet so this function might be less useful than before) and it's good in that it declutters the HUD by moving things like maps and inventories onto the second screen. My issue is that since the initial round of games there's not been a lot of inventiveness in how it's used. Nintendo Land and ZombiU were really built around the pad in a way few games since have been, and Nintendo need to get better at showing us why this thing is so great.

To most people, it is indeed a gimmick.

The simplest way to think about it is this: If it's not a basic, simple controller, it is a gimmick. Many even found that the Sixaxis' motion-sensing thing or whatever it was was also a gimmick (and note how few games used THAT) and tended to mostly hope that developers would ignore it. And the Sixaxis is still a normal controller otherwise.

But THIS? People dont know what the heck to make of it. The controller looks like a tablet.... and let us not forget, tablets are only for casual gamers *eye roll*. They also might wonder WHY such a thing was even chosen as this generation's gimmick; doesnt the 3DS, and the DS line in general, already do the "dual screens with one being a touchscreen" bit, which is essentially what this is? And then there's people's thoughts on BUYING the blasted things. Many dont like them because they're very oddly priced for something that's just a damn controller, and one thing I've seen from people is this assumption that because it's like a tablet, it'll break if you breathe on it. Tablets, they tend not to be able to take much in the way of punishment at all.

Hell, even I think it's a gimmick and I fully support things like tablets and whatnot.

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Re: Is there room for the Wii U in this gen?

Post by Gigifusc » Tue Jan 07, 2014 3:11 am

I'm very confused by someone saying the Wii U doesn't need the game pad. THATS THE BEST FEATURE OF THE CONSOLE!! 8O

The game pad has so much potential for either playing tablet like experiences on a home console, potential to play retro and indie games without a censored virtual stick and the potential for fusing gameplay experiences of home console and touch pad games.

The fact that most publishers are too thick to realise is well... Stupid.
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Re: Is there room for the Wii U in this gen?

Post by sirpigmeat » Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:17 am

Misery wrote: To most people, it is indeed a gimmick.

The simplest way to think about it is this: If it's not a basic, simple controller, it is a gimmick. Many even found that the Sixaxis' motion-sensing thing or whatever it was was also a gimmick (and note how few games used THAT) and tended to mostly hope that developers would ignore it. And the Sixaxis is still a normal controller otherwise.
'basic simple controller' is something that's changed over time... under that definition the d-pad, analogue stick/buttons, shoulder buttons, buttons in general... heck the pad itself... could all at one point have been classed as gimmicks..

Whatever people think, something is only a gimmick that isn't useful... That has only been made to attract people and doesn't improve upon anything... I don't think you could say that about the wiiU controller... it addresses a pretty fundamental gameplay issue... local multiplayer and has many other dull utilities that just make life a little easier... You can't say that about the wiiMote either, as their were games made for it which couldn't be played any other way... And the use of it in Skyward Sword adds a whole other dimension to character control...

You could certainly say it about the super scope... but if that'd been like "hey, having this on my shoulder allows for more stability and thus I can aim better" maybe it'd be a different matter!

You could call the PS4/XBox1 power increase a gimmick... its certainly done to sell more consoles and it may very well prove to be a useless upgrade... is it going to change or improve upon things... beyond a pretty unesacary graphical boost?

Gimmick is one of those words like 'mature' and 'kiddie'... that gamers like to throw around without really having a true definition of what they actually mean.

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Re: Is there room for the Wii U in this gen?

Post by sirpigmeat » Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:33 am

killbot wrote: The gamepad has been extremely useful for me. Off-TV play is a godsend, having a browser I can use without having to turn on the PC or dig out my old laptop is good (although I now have a tablet so this function might be less useful than before) and it's good in that it declutters the HUD by moving things like maps and inventories onto the second screen. My issue is that since the initial round of games there's not been a lot of inventiveness in how it's used. Nintendo Land and ZombiU were really built around the pad in a way few games since have been, and Nintendo need to get better at showing us why this thing is so great.
I think people may have gotten the wrong end of the stick when it comes to the wiiU pad... although I'm awaiting the more gimmicky, 'use the screen as a viewer', 'draw sigils on it to do magic spells' etc... type of games with baited breath... because I love that stuff and think theirs something fundementaly wrong with people who don't enjoy a good gimmick :D ... Its main use really is just as a utility... like being able to scroll maps in pikmin... not ground breaking or inventive, just useful... Its like the ds touchscreen, it can be used to draw sigils for special attacks, but really its just useful to have two screens for menus and being able to select and drop and drag stuff on the screen...

But anyway, if their is amazing gameplay features locked in their somewhere, we'll inevitably have to wait for Zelda wiiU to come out to see what it can really do.

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Re: Is there room for the Wii U in this gen?

Post by psj3809 » Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:41 am

So how did the Wii U do over Xmas ? Are there any figures yet for whether it sold well or not ?

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Re: Is there room for the Wii U in this gen?

Post by kelp7 » Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:48 am

Misery wrote:Pretty much every single gimmick other than the DS's screens that they'd come up with up to that point just.... well, they didnt even get to the "cough a few times" part, they just fell over and died.
Not to forget that this 'gimmick' of two-screens was not to do with the DS and happened in about 1982 starting with their game & watch handhelds. If anything, going to one screen again with the gameboy might have been the 'gimmick'
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Re: Is there room for the Wii U in this gen?

Post by Mootown » Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:48 am

psj3809 wrote:So how did the Wii U do over Xmas ? Are there any figures yet for whether it sold well or not ?
Depends on your definition of 'well' - if it's 'not as good as everything else, but better than it was doing' then it did well.
Although in positive rest of the world news, 3DS and Wii u are the current top selling consoles in Japan. Although PS4 isn't out there yet.

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Re: Is there room for the Wii U in this gen?

Post by Mootown » Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:59 am

kelp7 wrote:
Misery wrote:Pretty much every single gimmick other than the DS's screens that they'd come up with up to that point just.... well, they didnt even get to the "cough a few times" part, they just fell over and died.
Not to forget that this 'gimmick' of two-screens was not to do with the DS and happened in about 1982 starting with their game & watch handhelds. If anything, going to one screen again with the gameboy might have been the 'gimmick'
From Wikipedia: In marketing language, a gimmick is a unique or quirky special feature that makes something "stand out" from its contemporaries. However, the special feature is typically thought to be of little relevance or use. Thus, a gimmick is a special feature for the sake of having a special feature.

I wouldn't put the GamePad into that definition, it's definitely got a use as a second screen when the TV is in use, for a start.

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Re: Is there room for the Wii U in this gen?

Post by greenberet79 » Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:31 am

Funny the amount of abuse Nintendo takes on this forum.

All this for a company which gave us the NES, Super NES, Gameboy, Gameboy Advance, N64, Gamecube, DS, 3DS, Wii. Not to mention game and watches, mario and zelda.

Yeah, they don't know what they're doing.
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Re: Is there room for the Wii U in this gen?

Post by sirpigmeat » Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:10 am

greenberet79 wrote:Funny the amount of abuse Nintendo takes on this forum.
To be fair the abuse on this forum is pretty tame compared to other gaming forums... Its just nice to discuss games without people resorting to racial and homophobic slurs, not to mention death threats and of course idiocy that borders on the incomprehensible... Plus its pretty lacking in the real hardcore console zealots you get elsewhere...

I do wonder if Sony/Xbox forums get a bunch of Nintendo fans come and level the same kind of abuse towards them? I'd like to think Nintendo fans are above that sort of thing :D I got told off for saying 'damn' on miiverse the other day, its seems wrong somehow then, to defend Nintendo by calling sony/xbox owners a bunch of "censored-sucking faggots" or somesuch...

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Re: Is there room for the Wii U in this gen?

Post by Matt_B » Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:43 am

Mootown wrote:
psj3809 wrote:So how did the Wii U do over Xmas ? Are there any figures yet for whether it sold well or not ?
Depends on your definition of 'well' - if it's 'not as good as everything else, but better than it was doing' then it did well.
Although in positive rest of the world news, 3DS and Wii u are the current top selling consoles in Japan. Although PS4 isn't out there yet.
It seems to be selling in broadly the same numbers as the XB1, although it's difficult to compare the two as that's not out in all territories yet either. It'll be interesting to see how sales compare in the early months of this year though, as this time it'll be the XB1 that's the expensive machine with few games, while the Wii U has a fairly busy schedule.

The PS4 is significantly outpacing both machines though. It's already about 50% up on the XB1 and has sold nearly twice as many as the Wii U had last year. If you're looking for this generation's winner, I'm pretty sure it's the one now.

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Re: Is there room for the Wii U in this gen?

Post by pratty » Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:51 am

I think this thread is very tame.

Funnily enough since the banning of DCRIP the Nintendo bashing on this forum has calmed right down, when you have a celebrity pedo thread and people are posting pictures of Miyamoto in there, you know somebody has a problem. :lol:

Since those days we've been still able to cirticise Nintendo is a rational and reasoned manner, as exampled in this thread.
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Re: Is there room for the Wii U in this gen?

Post by killbot » Tue Jan 07, 2014 7:06 am

Misery wrote:The simplest way to think about it is this: If it's not a basic, simple controller, it is a gimmick.
So the NES and Master System controllers were gimmicks (a d-pad instead of a joystick? Two fire buttons?), as were the N64 controller (what's this stupid analogue thing?), Dual Shock (TWO stupid analogue things?) and the Dreamcast controller (why is there a screen on the controller?).

Game controller design is a constant process of change and evolution. Sometimes the changes introduced will be considered good ones and be adopted (d-pads, analogue sticks, shoulder buttons) and other times they won't. Sometimes a change will be made that at the time seems like a blind alley but which just wasn't right at the time and will later be revisited and become more accepted (the analogue sticks on the 5200 and the Dreamcast's second screen both being examples).

If you banned anyone from experimenting with new ways to control games, we'd still be using digital joysticks with one fire button, or even little paddles with no fire button at all. And that would seriously limit the kind of games you were able to make. That's the point - innovations in control frees up software designers to do new things as well.
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