Is there room for the Wii U in this gen?

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Lost Dragon
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Re: Is there room for the Wii U in this gen?

Post by Lost Dragon » Thu Jan 16, 2014 5:13 am

To hear the PS Vita outsold Wii U in UK last year, pretty much opened my eyes to just how bad things have become for Wii U.

Really does look like the right product, launched at the wrong time.Few years earlier and it could have given PS3 a run for it's money (at a time when 360 was still the prefered console development platform, multi-format games more often than not ran worse on PS3 as developers optimising code for PS3).

As it stands now, if the sales are'nt there, it's not going to get the 3rd party developer support and without that, it's not going to appeal to those it once might of.


Eurogamer article made for good reading-poor documentation and software tools still blighting hardware, after all that's been written about PS2,PS3, Jaguar, Saturn and N64 and surprised me even more as Game Cube supposed to be really developer friendly.

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Re: Is there room for the Wii U in this gen?

Post by outdated_gamer » Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:48 am

Lost Dragon wrote:To hear the PS Vita outsold Wii U in UK last year, pretty much opened my eyes to just how bad things have become for Wii U.

Really does look like the right product, launched at the wrong time.Few years earlier and it could have given PS3 a run for it's money (at a time when 360 was still the prefered console development platform, multi-format games more often than not ran worse on PS3 as developers optimising code for PS3).

As it stands now, if the sales are'nt there, it's not going to get the 3rd party developer support and without that, it's not going to appeal to those it once might of.


Eurogamer article made for good reading-poor documentation and software tools still blighting hardware, after all that's been written about PS2,PS3, Jaguar, Saturn and N64 and surprised me even more as Game Cube supposed to be really developer friendly.
I also think the system could be released earlier. Now it just seems like a "in-between" kinda system and systems that had that reputation (i.e. Turbografx, Jaguar, Dreamcast, ect.) didn't really do that well. Wii support was already declining come 2011 which would be a better period to reveal and launch a "HD Nintendo" system. I think they kinda underestimated HD development as they were unready for it due to being used to SD development. The CPU choice and preferring low power consumption over more hardware power is also questionable. While the CPU does provide backwards compatibility, it's also the source of several developer's discontent. Some games were even canned because of it, such as Metro Last Light. And I wouldn't say it's the developer's fault because this game is a technical marvel on the PC. It seems Nintendo designed the system specifically for their developers and the developers who want to build games "ground-up" for the system. But in today's times there's not exactly many devs would would want to dedicate themselves wholly to just one system and risk a commercial failure. Most today's games are multi-plats and it could even be said that multi-plats became more important than exclusives in a lot of gamer's eyes. Although a console system still needs exclusives to draw people to it so I think if there is something that can push Wii U sales it's attractive exclusives. And that area does seem to be the company's focus now rather than unique hardware "hooks".

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Re: Is there room for the Wii U in this gen?

Post by ToxieDogg » Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:31 pm

Lost Dragon wrote:To hear the PS Vita outsold Wii U in UK last year, pretty much opened my eyes to just how bad things have become for Wii U.

Really does look like the right product, launched at the wrong time.Few years earlier and it could have given PS3 a run for it's money (at a time when 360 was still the prefered console development platform, multi-format games more often than not ran worse on PS3 as developers optimising code for PS3).

As it stands now, if the sales are'nt there, it's not going to get the 3rd party developer support and without that, it's not going to appeal to those it once might of.


Eurogamer article made for good reading-poor documentation and software tools still blighting hardware, after all that's been written about PS2,PS3, Jaguar, Saturn and N64 and surprised me even more as Game Cube supposed to be really developer friendly.
Aye, that was pretty damning. Especially after the worldwide sales figures chart that VG Chartz put up for the pre Xmas week looked OK. I think the price definitely has to be a factor now, with people not wanting to pay £250-ish for a machine that only comes with 32gb memory and a relatively small selection of games at the moment, compared to an Xbox 360 or PS3 with their hundreds and hundreds of games that can be picked up for pennies now, with all their added media features and proven online services with their proper account systems and whatnot...not only that, but while the Wii U was getting some brilliant games in it's first year (Pikmin 3, Super Mario 3D World and the likes), the PS3 wasn't exactly short of brand new big name hugely hyped titles itself (ie. Ni No Kuni, The Last Of Us, Beyond: Two Souls, Gran Turismo 6) and both the 360 and PS3 had Saints Row 4 and GTA V as well....bit of a stark comparison compared to what the original Wii was getting in it's final year before the Wii U came out, give or take The Last Story and Pandora's Tower....basically, the Wii U's been up against massively stiff competition from the much cheaper and much more established Xbox 360 and PS3, never mind the machines that have succeeded them.

It's strange how so many people have hugely embraced the 3DS, and yet have given Nintendo the cold shoulder in the home console department, similar to how the PS4 is selling great but the Vita is still massively struggling against the 3DS. I doubt I'll ever fully understand why these trends are the way they are. What I do know is that Nintendo need to advertise more...not just the odd channel on kids TV now and then but in your face, all the time ads on prime time TV like Sony and Microsoft have done with the PS4 and Xbox One. When Mario Kart 8 is nearing launch, they really need to get awareness out there as much as they can...not just go for the 'family/child' market but the whole lot.
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Re: Is there room for the Wii U in this gen?

Post by outdated_gamer » Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:37 pm

Misery wrote:
sirpigmeat wrote: I think this is a bit of an assumption really... I've had a few people round of all sort of levels of game know how and not one of them found the wiiU pad at all daunting... it really hasn't been an issue at all... most people these days have touchscreen phones, many already have and play on tablets... The wiiU pad is more understandable than the wiiMote really... its just a normal pad with a screen built in... if you can use a pad and have eyeballs your 3 quarters of the way their... also you can poke the screen with your finger, tutorial over! If their is a problem its that not alot of these people knew anything at all about the wiiU, even that it had a touchscreen pad.

I never get people being down on the N64 pad, its one of my faves... Having the trigger over stick allowed for shooting precision that nothing has matched since... In goldeneye you could sorta flick and shoot for several perfect headshots on moving targets everytime. Also the near perfect control in Pilotwings 64, (that i've seen some say are appalling) ... it required the most accuracy of any game i've ever played, just a nano movement over or under could lead to perfect medals or crashing and burning... if anyone sucked it was just because they weren't good enough!

Oh, you'd be surprised..... quite alot of people have, and use, things like smartphones without actually really knowing how to use them. They can call, they can text..... and that's it. It's something I've run into a thousand times recently. .....it's something that also gets really old, too. I dunno why people buy things like tablets that cost so much but then never learn how to use them.... but that's a whole different rant. It's not even about not knowing how to use something like that, though. A product like this is still not going to make sense to many, and that's something that affects sales, usually heavily. And heck, it can bring up a whole other question: "If this thing is like a tablet, why should I buy it? It's just gonna be like the games I can get on my own phone/tablet, after all!" That's another one I've heard a few times recently. That the console hooks up mainly to a TV instead of just being on the controller all the time doesnt stop people from asking things like that. Consumers as a whole.... well, they aint very bright. Which can make products like this have a much harder time than they otherwise would.

Anyway, even those that have and understand these things can get negative ideas from it. Despite the fact that tablets/whatever such as iOS or Android devices do have "hardcore" games, many actual gamers also associate them with the dreaded "casual" sort (gasp!), and that's one thing that I keep hearing stamped onto the Wii U sort of automatically. Or you get those that just think it's weird.... I can understand THAT one. Even if I think the thing has potential, I'll always see it as another Nintendo gimmick.... and the unanswered question is always "WHY cant they just focus on the actual games for once, like they used to?". Not just their first-party titles, but also making sure that the third-party stuff is there also. And of course, there's no easy answer to that.


As for the N64 controller, I dont actually think it's bad, but I still always thought it to be a tad dumb. Not that it matters, I got rid of that thing a long while ago.
Personally, I think Nintendo's issue is not losing the "core" gamers because, let's do be honest here, they haven't really been competing head to head with Sony and MS ever since the GameCube (and even that system was deemed "too different" in many core gamer's eyes), their issue is more losing the "casual" gamers, those who were the main Wii audience. They probably thought the majority of those who bought a Wii would also buy a Wii U but it seems that just didn't (or doesn't) happen. It seems a large part of the Wii audience is either disinterested in the Wii U or they do their entertainment on other devices. This may sound funny but I actually think portable devices are a bigger threat to Nintendo than Sony and MS are. If we look at the DS and Wii, they were both a massive success, but not because of hardware. It was because of the novelity touch-screen and motion-controller. Coupled with a "family-friendly" image, low price and good advertising it did the trick to make them the most successful Nintendo systems to date. But if we look at 3DS and Wii U, we see a different picture. They are more powerful systems, designed more with "traditional" gaming in mind. The touch-screen and motion-control novelity is gone, instead there is the 3-D effect (which not everyone can enjoy) and a more standard controller with an integrated touch-screen. The launch price of both systems was also higher, which ment that the initial reception wasn't as warm. The DS and Wii were the "white" systems, the 3DS and Wii U are the "black" systems, to add a meta-physical component to the discusion. :wink:

So to sum things up I think it was bound to happen that their market share would decline over time as the "Wii craze" was bound to die down, as would their handheld success. It was kinda predictable if you followed the market currents and to be honest I was surprised that the success lasted for so long. The qustion that remains now is how this "shrinking" would affect them, as they have to split resouces between two systems. Many people already have the sentiment that their handheld is getting "more love" than their home system and in a way that may be so. It seems Nintendo is more of a handheld-centric company nowadays, although many may have fond memories of the NES and SNES and also the N64 and NGC. Their handheld orientation may affect the way they design their home system too, so maybe a unified sort of system could not be a so far-fetched idea for the future. But the strenght of the company lies ultimately in the software, not the hardware. While I don't think Nintendo should yet consider developing for different platforms and continue to push for exclusive content, that could become an option at some point too. But I think the clear emphasis should be on the software since that's what drives their hardware sales, not vice-versa.

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Re: Is there room for the Wii U in this gen?

Post by Lost Dragon » Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:46 pm

PS3 had the luxury of time on it's side.Developers moaned about split Ram and having to code to the metal (offload tasks to SPU's etc), but slowly but surely they did spend time with the hardware and where as in past you'd see things like Orange Box, Bayonetta etc farmed out to external development teams, things like Vanquish were PS3 1st and you've only to look at GTA5 on PS3 to see how Rockstar coded for the hardware, rather then a best-fit solution.


Sad a situation as it is, i just don't see eother Vita or Wii U being given the time they need to sort themselves out.Both really had to hit the ground running.As far as Vita-to PS3 or PS4 connectivity goes, if Dust 514 was Sony's big hope of tempting likes of myself that Vita was essential purchase, more of a big white whale.


The PS2 never embraced the online side the way MS did with the Xbox and Sony had a lot of catching up to do with MS and still has a way to travel yet, but it's miles ahead of where the Wii U currently stands as far as online services go.It's almost as if Nintendo just been in a deep sllep and woken up with a start and gone Ohhh f**K, folks are now into HD and online gaming and they are using the online side for more than just gaming...they are having to be reactive, rather than pro-active and as Toxie said, for price tag of the machine, people have expectations of what they'll get and what it can do.


The PS4/Xbox One seem to be selling themselves on better than PS3/360 versions of things like BF4/COD etc.Portable COD was never really going to shift Vita's in my view and a bloody awful COD on VITA just made a poor situation far worse and Bioshock, Sony even signed off on that deal yet?.

Sony's in house-developers like Naughty Dog brought new I.P to the table this generation, Nintendo really need to try and do the same or use some of the huge cash resources they are sat on, to get other developers producing far greater numbers of exclusives, Bayonetta 2 etc just won't cut it i fear.

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Re: Is there room for the Wii U in this gen?

Post by outdated_gamer » Thu Jan 16, 2014 1:00 pm

Lost Dragon wrote:PS3 had the luxury of time on it's side.Developers moaned about split Ram and having to code to the metal (offload tasks to SPU's etc), but slowly but surely they did spend time with the hardware and where as in past you'd see things like Orange Box, Bayonetta etc farmed out to external development teams, things like Vanquish were PS3 1st and you've only to look at GTA5 on PS3 to see how Rockstar coded for the hardware, rather then a best-fit solution.


Sad a situation as it is, i just don't see eother Vita or Wii U being given the time they need to sort themselves out.Both really had to hit the ground running.As far as Vita-to PS3 or PS4 connectivity goes, if Dust 514 was Sony's big hope of tempting likes of myself that Vita was essential purchase, more of a big white whale.


The PS2 never embraced the online side the way MS did with the Xbox and Sony had a lot of catching up to do with MS and still has a way to travel yet, but it's miles ahead of where the Wii U currently stands as far as online services go.It's almost as if Nintendo just been in a deep sllep and woken up with a start and gone Ohhh f**K, folks are now into HD and online gaming and they are using the online side for more than just gaming...they are having to be reactive, rather than pro-active and as Toxie said, for price tag of the machine, people have expectations of what they'll get and what it can do.


The PS4/Xbox One seem to be selling themselves on better than PS3/360 versions of things like BF4/COD etc.Portable COD was never really going to shift Vita's in my view and a bloody awful COD on VITA just made a poor situation far worse and Bioshock, Sony even signed off on that deal yet?.

Sony's in house-developers like Naughty Dog brought new I.P to the table this generation, Nintendo really need to try and do the same or use some of the huge cash resources they are sat on, to get other developers producing far greater numbers of exclusives, Bayonetta 2 etc just won't cut it i fear.
In some recent public statement Sony blamed mobile phones for the decline of PS Vita sales. In a way they are right to do so since it's really hard to see what the PS Vita is missing, as a gaming portable. It's capable, inexpensive, has unique exclusive games, upcomming "heavy-hitters" like God of War (they should push for an exclusive MGS, GTA and GT game though), features that actually look appealing if used right, ect.

I won't hide that I find the PS Vita a better mobile gaming platform than the 3DS, from a hardware perspective.

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Re: Is there room for the Wii U in this gen?

Post by Matt_B » Thu Jan 16, 2014 1:16 pm

One thing that the Vita was missing was the full commitment of Sony behind it. With it, the PSP E1000, and the Xperia Play all hitting the market in rapid succession, they had the distinct appearance of a company that was hedging their bets.

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Re: Is there room for the Wii U in this gen?

Post by Sephiroth81 » Thu Jan 16, 2014 3:19 pm

outdated_gamer wrote:
I won't hide that I find the PS Vita a better mobile gaming platform than the 3DS, from a hardware perspective.
Hardware means nothing in the mobile gaming front. When has the most powerful handheld console EVER won its generation? The Lynx and Game Gear were comfortably beaten by the Gameboy. The GBA basically had no competition of any note at all, and the DS easily out performed the more powerful PSP. The same is happening in this generation.

The answer, as far as i can see, is simple. The types of games and its market. The multimedia aspect of the PSP Vita is utterly useless, as most smart phones can do all of those things. The DS and 3DS focus on gaming, and making games that are ideal "on the go" or in between doing things. Both had better battery life than the PSP and VITA (although 3DS isn't that great) so for travel, the Nintendo consoles were always a better bet.

Don't get me wrong, I love my PSP, but for all the reasons Sony didn't want - ie piracy and emulation. Its a superb emulator console that the DS can't compete with. You can bet that a big percentage of the PSPs buyers were keen on its homebrew functionality rather than purely its games.

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Re: Is there room for the Wii U in this gen?

Post by outdated_gamer » Thu Jan 16, 2014 4:34 pm

Sephiroth81 wrote:
outdated_gamer wrote:
I won't hide that I find the PS Vita a better mobile gaming platform than the 3DS, from a hardware perspective.
Hardware means nothing in the mobile gaming front. When has the most powerful handheld console EVER won its generation? The Lynx and Game Gear were comfortably beaten by the Gameboy. The GBA basically had no competition of any note at all, and the DS easily out performed the more powerful PSP. The same is happening in this generation.
Still doesn't change the fact that both, the Lynx and Game Gear were, in some ways, better than the GBC released years after the original black/white/yellow-greenish GB. :wink:

PSP actually did fairly well, for a newcommer portable system. There was also the Nokia Ngage but that was kinda poor as a gaming device.

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Re: Is there room for the Wii U in this gen?

Post by Matt_B » Thu Jan 16, 2014 5:04 pm

outdated_gamer wrote:Still doesn't change the fact that both, the Lynx and Game Gear were, in some ways, better than the GBC released years after the original black/white/yellow-greenish GB. :wink:
To be fair to the GBC it was rather constrained by having to have near total compatibility with GB games and a decent battery life, which are things you can't say about the Lynx and Game Gear.

I'd also tend to charitably view it as a revision of the GB, in much the same way that the DSi is seen as a revision of the DS, rather than an entirely different machine. Still, that's another thread.
PSP actually did fairly well, for a newcommer portable system. There was also the Nokia Ngage but that was kinda poor as a gaming device.
The hardware sold well, but games sales were abysmal. If there was a machine last generation that people tended to buy, get a couple of games for, and then stick in a cupboard and forget, the PSP was it.

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Re: Is there room for the Wii U in this gen?

Post by Lost Dragon » Thu Jan 16, 2014 5:19 pm

Game Gear and Lynx both paid price for being colour systems, battery life not a patch on GB's.Plus you had GB and Tetris, yet Atari turned down Loopz, saying puzzle games not ideally suited to handheld (thankfully game was released, but not via Atari).

Atari promised, just did'nt deliver on the games front, as a Lynx owner it was so frustrating reading annoucements, seeing what you knew were fake shots (Cabal, Rolling Thunder etc all in far higher resolution than actual Lynx screen), done by Atari for trade ads etc just to boost share prices and consumer confidence.There was a conversion from the ST to the Lynx of Elite, demo.shown to Atari, did'nt want to proceed with it, wether they did'nt want to pay for rights, i'm not sure, but GB had Elite, Lynx did'nt.

Homebrew side on Lynx is fantastic, had games of that caliber appeared in the day, things might have been very different.

Plus niether Lynx nor G.G could really be described as ideally portable, too big to fit in a pocket and you really needed extra battery packs or be near a mains socket for any real length of play.

PSP-i could fill a thread up with, love mine, thank god it's region free, but Sony putting PS2-esq games on it, rather than having games designed around portable play, did not help it.

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Re: Is there room for the Wii U in this gen?

Post by The Laird » Thu Jan 16, 2014 5:31 pm

Lost Dragon wrote:Game Gear and Lynx both paid price for being colour systems, battery life not a patch on GB's.Plus you had GB and Tetris, yet Atari turned down Loopz, saying puzzle games not ideally suited to handheld (thankfully game was released, but not via Atari).
I really don't believe that this is true given that Atari released Shanghai, Ishido, Klax, Chip's Challenge, Block Out and Super Skweek - all puzzle games. I would say it's more likely to do with the fact that Atari put all external Lynx projects (Handmade were converting Loopz) on hold while they got the Jaguar out. The Tramiels were not foolish enough to licence something if they had no intention to release it. Same thing happened with games like Fat Bobby, Hot Dog, Raiden, Road Riot 4WD, Rolling Thunder, Dungeon Master, Eye Of The Beholder etc.


Anyway this has gone WAY off topic, this thread is supposed to be about the Wii U.

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Re: Is there room for the Wii U in this gen?

Post by General Opulence » Thu Jan 16, 2014 5:55 pm

Matt_B wrote: The hardware sold well, but games sales were abysmal. If there was a machine last generation that people tended to buy, get a couple of games for, and then stick in a cupboard and forget, the PSP was it.
I would hardly call them 'abysmal', Monster Hunter sold 4.8million, Gran Turismo 4.2million and 17 games in total sold over a million units each....

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Re: Is there room for the Wii U in this gen?

Post by HEAVYface » Thu Jan 16, 2014 6:36 pm

outdated_gamer wrote:Interesting "inside story" regarding the issues of development for the Wii U:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digit ... side-story

Seems the low CPU is quite an issue for the developers. Lacking documentation and poor tools remind on another, much older system they had too.
I read the story and to be honest it was unfair to single out Nintendo and the wii u. The points the developer made can be levelled at any new hardware release and manufacturer, as they tend to get stretched thin around release time. Plenty of hardware has bugs and stuff in it the hardware designers miss because they don't push it the same way as software engineers (software engineers seem to get a kick out of using hardware in unintended and novel ways)

cpu thing an issue? depends on what type of game you want to make, and is an easy excuse....most do not want to change a design to fit/use the hardware. will multiplatform titles on the xbox one use Kinect fully for instance? I doubt it even though you can do some interesting gameplay things with it.

also plenty of consoles have crappy tools and documentation throughout their whole existence. This is not just a Nintendo issue.

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Re: Is there room for the Wii U in this gen?

Post by sirpigmeat » Thu Jan 16, 2014 6:42 pm

Misery wrote: Oh, you'd be surprised..... quite alot of people have, and use, things like smartphones without actually really knowing how to use them. They can call, they can text..... and that's it. It's something I've run into a thousand times recently. .....it's something that also gets really old, too. I dunno why people buy things like tablets that cost so much but then never learn how to use them.... but that's a whole different rant. It's not even about not knowing how to use something like that, though. A product like this is still not going to make sense to many, and that's something that affects sales, usually heavily. And heck, it can bring up a whole other question: "If this thing is like a tablet, why should I buy it? It's just gonna be like the games I can get on my own phone/tablet, after all!" That's another one I've heard a few times recently. That the console hooks up mainly to a TV instead of just being on the controller all the time doesnt stop people from asking things like that. Consumers as a whole.... well, they aint very bright. Which can make products like this have a much harder time than they otherwise would.

Anyway, even those that have and understand these things can get negative ideas from it. Despite the fact that tablets/whatever such as iOS or Android devices do have "hardcore" games, many actual gamers also associate them with the dreaded "casual" sort (gasp!), and that's one thing that I keep hearing stamped onto the Wii U sort of automatically. Or you get those that just think it's weird.... I can understand THAT one. Even if I think the thing has potential, I'll always see it as another Nintendo gimmick.... and the unanswered question is always "WHY cant they just focus on the actual games for once, like they used to?". Not just their first-party titles, but also making sure that the third-party stuff is there also. And of course, there's no easy answer to that.
I'm sure some people will have problems with it, but i'm sure some people had problems with the wiiMote, i've heard "whats the point?" leveled at the ps4/xbox1s power upgrades... i'm sure some people will question the point of the wiiUs HD... I don't think however the wiiU pad will get any more flack than any other feature of a console... And I think some people would have moaned just as much if the wiiU didn't have some fancy new periphial too...

I think when in comes to focusing on games, what better thing is their to do than create a new periphial to experiment with? Given that games are an interactive medium i'd say its mighty important to try out new ways of interacting with them... I also think that by the end of its life Nintendo will have knocked out at least a couple of genius titles that wouldn't have been possible without the pad.

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