How Video Games Changed The World

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Re: How Video Games Changed The World

Post by Joey » Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:39 am

Yea I think Game of Thrones is a good example of the envelope being pushed TV content wise. It's not just the sex and nudity but also the violence in general. Remember the scene of the baby being snatched from its mothers arms in the brothel and being killed by a guard. It wasn't particularly graphic but was quite an eye opener!

Again, I think it comes down to the relatively young age of the video game medium and lack of understanding from older generations of people who are put In a position of judgment on what should and shouldn't be allowed in a game.
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Re: How Video Games Changed The World

Post by thebear » Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:36 am

I find the it interesting that the cartoonish cut scene OTT violence in MK9 is at least seemingly the end of civilization as we know it

yet the player controlled realistic mowing down of 100's of unarmed civilians is a scene straight from the highest selling franchise on the planet

Neither bother me to be honest

but if I had to grade I'd say COD MW2 is far more offensive than anything in MK9 yet looking at sales it certainly doesn't seem to be considered offensive by a HUGE amount of people
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Re: How Video Games Changed The World

Post by Antiriad2097 » Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:50 am

lanky316 wrote:IF I really go out of my way to make it happen, and if I'm doing that, I have bigger issues than violent scenes in video games.
Are you really? Or are you just pushing the full enjoyment of the game in question?

Is a favoured finishing move really questionable? Especially when balanced against the others. Its a game with violent options. Choosing those doesn't make you somehow evil.

What of the argument that it allows people to vent in a safe and secure manner?
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Re: How Video Games Changed The World

Post by HalcyonDaze00 » Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:38 am

Antiriad2097 wrote:
lanky316 wrote:IF I really go out of my way to make it happen, and if I'm doing that, I have bigger issues than violent scenes in video games.
Are you really? Or are you just pushing the full enjoyment of the game in question?

Is a favoured finishing move really questionable? Especially when balanced against the others. Its a game with violent options. Choosing those doesn't make you somehow evil.

What of the argument that it allows people to vent in a safe and secure manner?
indeed, most players on MK have always tried using the fatalities, beating one of your mates with a gruesome finisher was always great fun. and years before on Barbarian everybody wanted to hit the spinning neck chop for the awesome decapitation.

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Re: How Video Games Changed The World

Post by lanky316 » Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:54 am

If I'm going out of my way to cut a woman in half from the vagina up because I get some sort of strange sexual pleasure (as Matt implied was the purpose, that it's sexual and the way it's depicted in the show was to touch that nerve) then I'd say so. In order to make it happen over and over again it would suggest that I'm setting up two player fights with myself as Hat Guy and a scantily clad woman to be my puppet just so I can see this fatality over and over again. There is a menu option to practice fatalities I notice so I COULD just sit there for hours to make sure I see it without having to do the rest of the fighting. Again, this is on the assumption I'm making a special point just to see this one animation (which I need to unlock, or research online to find out how to do it over and over).

If I really like the character and it's my favourite finisher then that's a different case, "I don't care if you're Bruce Lee, the smug actor or whatever I'm cutting you in half". I can see a situation of course where you may see it more often in a night, if my favourite is hat guy and your favourite is Sonya and we're fighting the same characters over and over again then we'll see a bloke using his hat as a saw to cut a woman in half quite often (actually based on my beat 'em up prowess, never).

The jury is currently out on the "vent in a safe and secure manner" case, while we all know that watching adult videos doesn't equate with people committing sexual crimes and playing violent video games doesn't equate with people going on killing sprees (insert other Mail-style complaints as appropriate) there are still a few occasions in which they can be linked into a specific case, IF I'm going out of my way to see this in that specific way for the implied reason when playing MK9 to "get my fix" of obscene sexual violence then I can see the raised eyebrows and questions over an individuals psychological profile. If I'm playing the game, I like the game, I like the character, I like the move and opportunity arises to use said move so I take it, that is called "playing the game and having a laugh at the OTT cartoon violence" and there really is nothing sinister in that. Despite the ploy by the producers to highlight this plague ;)
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Re: How Video Games Changed The World

Post by killbot » Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:24 pm

I think the key difference between MK9 and, say, MW2 is that one is supposed to be a serious political thriller and the other is played for laughs. Now, it's easy to scoff at the notion that CoD is a political thriller (because viewed through that lens it's terrible) but that's what it's trying to be. The situations in it are meant to reflect that. When you're gunning down those civilians, you're meant to feel divided about it. It's a moment of drama with you being put in the shoes of a man caught in a catastrophic moral dilemma.

MK9 is none of those things. It's a game for playing with your mates after the pub and laughing about. As such, scenes of horrendous violence against women become slightly more troubling. Of course, nobody is suggesting that seeing that will make someone want to go out and literally saw a woman in half. But what it does do is contribute to a climate in which violence generally and violence against women in particular is seen as something to be laughed at rather than an evil to be stamped out.
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Re: How Video Games Changed The World

Post by lanky316 » Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:58 pm

killbot wrote:I think the key difference between MK9 and, say, MW2 is that one is supposed to be a serious political thriller and the other is played for laughs. Now, it's easy to scoff at the notion that CoD is a political thriller (because viewed through that lens it's terrible) but that's what it's trying to be. The situations in it are meant to reflect that. When you're gunning down those civilians, you're meant to feel divided about it. It's a moment of drama with you being put in the shoes of a man caught in a catastrophic moral dilemma.

MK9 is none of those things. It's a game for playing with your mates after the pub and laughing about. As such, scenes of horrendous violence against women become slightly more troubling. Of course, nobody is suggesting that seeing that will make someone want to go out and literally saw a woman in half. But what it does do is contribute to a climate in which violence generally and violence against women in particular is seen as something to be laughed at rather than an evil to be stamped out.
So to avoid this women should never appear in fighting games, which in turn means people complain about women not being in fighting games! This is the difficult situation for the sake of making a game like this. The incident in question is in no way intended to be something for violence against women, it's a suitably violent move for a character who's entire gimmick is that his hat is some sort of razor blade thing, as said earlier his default fatality involves using it to decapitate an opponent and then saw DOWN through the body, the natural "2nd choice" is to therefore have him cut UP through the body. The alternative would be disabling certain moves in matches including a male vs female avatar. GTA 5 actually does this, very rarely will a female stand their ground or pick a fight with your character. You punch a guys car, sometimes he gets out and starts fighting you. Sometimes he'll run away, same if you try jacking their car, sometimes he'll try and drag you out and steal it back, others he'll run screaming away. Females on the streets of Los Santos are programmed to always run off screaming, unless something changed in a recent patch I've never seen a girl stand their ground and open fire. Women and men are programmed to work in completely different personalities.

It is very easy to make something look much worse, sometimes a part of a game will be deliberately trying to invoke reactions, such as the airport scene in MW2 or the torture scene in GTAV both of which can be taken to highlight "the evils of gaming" taken out of context and sometimes (as here) you can take something relatively "normal" and twist it far darker. Mortal Kombat has always been what it says on the tin, over the top fights to the death in battles between demons/gods/mortals/whatever where you can finish your vanquished foes in over the top ways. To get the response needed to get the discussion going they had to find just the right example to fuel the point, they took this one as it would provoke the right reaction they were looking for, the same thing on Sub Zero wouldn't have got the same response from viewers, I'm sure there would be people who feel that even for cartoon violence it is a bit much and I CAN see that view and understand it but in no way is it EVER trying to say within context "violence against women in particular is seen as something to be laughed at".
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Re: How Video Games Changed The World

Post by Antiriad2097 » Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:22 pm

killbot wrote:I think the key difference between MK9 and, say, MW2 is that one is supposed to be a serious political thriller and the other is played for laughs. Now, it's easy to scoff at the notion that CoD is a political thriller (because viewed through that lens it's terrible) but that's what it's trying to be. The situations in it are meant to reflect that. When you're gunning down those civilians, you're meant to feel divided about it. It's a moment of drama with you being put in the shoes of a man caught in a catastrophic moral dilemma
It may have been suggested (possibly to placate the press) that we're meant to feel divided about that scene.

The reality is many (most?) of us took great delight in making sure the final bullet was in every squealing one of those NPCs. Because that's what they are. They are not men or women, they're just polygons. There's no moral dilemma, no need to think that you shouldn't be doing it, we can freely gun everyone down because its all fake. In much the same way as I had no qualms about shooting one of the older women I used to work with when playing laser quest. While the latter may be marginally different as we were both 'combatants' in that particular scenario, its all just fantasy.
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Re: How Video Games Changed The World

Post by RodimusPrime » Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:43 pm

Antiriad2097 wrote:
killbot wrote:I think the key difference between MK9 and, say, MW2 is that one is supposed to be a serious political thriller and the other is played for laughs. Now, it's easy to scoff at the notion that CoD is a political thriller (because viewed through that lens it's terrible) but that's what it's trying to be. The situations in it are meant to reflect that. When you're gunning down those civilians, you're meant to feel divided about it. It's a moment of drama with you being put in the shoes of a man caught in a catastrophic moral dilemma
It may have been suggested (possibly to placate the press) that we're meant to feel divided about that scene.

The reality is many (most?) of us took great delight in making sure the final bullet was in every squealing one of those NPCs. Because that's what they are. They are not men or women, they're just polygons. There's no moral dilemma, no need to think that you shouldn't be doing it, we can freely gun everyone down because its all fake. In much the same way as I had no qualms about shooting one of the older women I used to work with when playing laser quest. While the latter may be marginally different as we were both 'combatants' in that particular scenario, its all just fantasy.
Actually I felt really uncomfortable doing it, as did many of my friends. We all play MK games and GTA, but for some reason the COD scene really made me uncomfortable.

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Re: How Video Games Changed The World

Post by GigaPepsiMan » Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:46 pm

I had a ball with No Russian, I even made sure to throw my grenades whenever I saw a large group of people. In some ways I feel like playing the game in that way is a good way to give the middle finger to the developer "here's what I think of your message, BOOM! HIGH SCORE!".

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Re: How Video Games Changed The World

Post by ToxieDogg » Tue Dec 17, 2013 4:51 pm

Antiriad2097 wrote:The reality is many (most?) of us took great delight in making sure the final bullet was in every squealing one of those NPCs. Because that's what they are. They are not men or women, they're just polygons. There's no moral dilemma, no need to think that you shouldn't be doing it, we can freely gun everyone down because its all fake. In much the same way as I had no qualms about shooting one of the older women I used to work with when playing laser quest. While the latter may be marginally different as we were both 'combatants' in that particular scenario, its all just fantasy.
Yep, same here. I knew about the level beforehand and when I got there I just opened fire on everyone, mostly because I just wanted to see if it'd affect any in game dialogue or if anything 'special' would happen, to be honest.

The only time a game has ever made me feel uncomfortable about my actions...was this year actually. Playing Assassin's Creed 4. I have absolutely no problems killing however many people I need to, or even hunting animals on land (same as Assassin's Creed 3) but having to harpoon whales to death left a bit of a sour taste in my mouth....yes, its not real, yes, you need to do it to get items for upgrades but unlike killing human NPCs and the animals on land (which is quite quick), the harpooning sections go on for quite a bit of time and really show how much the whales are suffering as you gradually wear them down with harpoons and your crew members jeer insults at them...the large amounts of blood on screen don't help either. Every time I have to do it in game, I keep thinking about real people doing it, and it makes me feel a little sad. :(
killbot wrote:IMK9 is none of those things. It's a game for playing with your mates after the pub and laughing about. As such, scenes of horrendous violence against women become slightly more troubling. Of course, nobody is suggesting that seeing that will make someone want to go out and literally saw a woman in half. But what it does do is contribute to a climate in which violence generally and violence against women in particular is seen as something to be laughed at rather than an evil to be stamped out.
You're still taking the MK9 scene out of context. There's no 'violence against women' being promoted in it, as all the characters (female fighters included) have OTT fatalities that they use on opponents of either sex. I've seen that Kung Lao fatality used on most characters in the game, and most of them are male combatants. I can only too well understand that you abhor violence against women (my sister was regularly beaten and then almost killed a while back by her violent thug of an ex-husband) but MK9 isn't promoting it, in my honest opinion, no more than the vast majority of people would want to go out and commit violence against women after Dragon Punching Chun Li in Street Fighter 2.
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Re: How Video Games Changed The World

Post by pratty » Tue Dec 17, 2013 5:46 pm

killbot wrote:MK9 is none of those things. It's a game for playing with your mates after the pub and laughing about. As such, scenes of horrendous violence against women become slightly more troubling. Of course, nobody is suggesting that seeing that will make someone want to go out and literally saw a woman in half. But what it does do is contribute to a climate in which violence generally and violence against women in particular is seen as something to be laughed at rather than an evil to be stamped out.
I'm not sure why it being a women is should be an issue, what's so special against violence against women? Obviously violence against women is bad (and domestic abuse is a horrible problem in society), but really why is it any worse than violence against a man? If I went out now and randomly beat the crap out of some defenseless dude in the street for no reason, I doubt somebody telling him "Well at least you weren't a women," is going to make him feel any better about it.

If it's good enough for a male character to get sawn in half then it should be for a female. And it's not like the fatalities are reserved just for the female characters so I don't see how it could be promoting violence specifically against women. She's not helpless, nor innocent, she's actually quite capable and presumebly consented to the fight, and she'd actually also do the very same to you if she got the chance.

What do we mean by violence? Is UFC violence? There's no victim when two consenting adults fight for sport, no injustice, nothing regretful about it. Mortal Kombat is essentially sport/competition, albeit sometimes to the death, there are no innocent victims though, male or female.

We can debate whether the fatalities are too graphic or too sadistic, but given the context of Mortal Kombat and most beat'em ups female charcters should be fair game.
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Re: How Video Games Changed The World

Post by crusto » Tue Dec 17, 2013 5:50 pm

^

Yeah, this.
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Re: How Video Games Changed The World

Post by thebear » Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:46 pm

GigaPepsiMan wrote:I had a ball with No Russian, I even made sure to throw my grenades whenever I saw a large group of people. In some ways I feel like playing the game in that way is a good way to give the middle finger to the developer "here's what I think of your message, BOOM! HIGH SCORE!".
Yeah like I said neither bothered me, with MW2 I thought it was a cool way to make you consider bit it certainly didn't affect me

They're games, just like movies are movies and I seen far worse in films than ever in games

But as say IF I was going to be offended MW2 would seem a million times worse than the OTT cartoon violence of MK9

It prob stems from old gits assumption that all games are for kids so everything in them will be seen by kids?

Going back to the movie ref, take even a great film like sleepers

Imagine the row if half the stuff that goes on in that happened in a game??
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Re: How Video Games Changed The World

Post by psj3809 » Wed Dec 18, 2013 4:36 am

I never got into Mortal Kombat much, remember a couple of the death 'finishes' and wasnt that shocked as a teenager. I think its bad that everyones up in arms about this death sequence with the female character yet any for the male characters dont seem to get as much hassle. Thought it was just another fighting game but they added OTT death sequences for a bit of publicity/hype.

Also i think its a case of us 'getting older' ! Again as kids was anyone that shocked when you started seeing these types of games ? Did anyone start re-enacting fight sequences with mates ? Nope.

Were we all shocked when in Barbarian as mentioned earlier you could do that great 'death move' and decaptiate the other persons head and then see it kicked along the ground by a goblin ? Were we shocked when we were shooting prams with an uzi in Cobra ?

I cant believe so much is being made about that death move where the female gets sliced in half, people are reading way too much into it, i dont play MK much but is that death move only for a woman ? So death moves for the male characters are okay but as this ones a woman we should be up in arms about it ?

I mean what next ? Moaning that Mortal Kombat doesnt cater for the 'larger figure' as all the women in it are stick thin and kids playing this might think they need to be stick thin ? !

Again i think people are reading way too much into it. If a kids a bit 'whats the PC term' 'not all there' then it doesnt matter if theyre ploughing into people (sorry zombies) in Carmegeddon or taking out the rubbish in Trashman.

Again its down to the parent, in an ideal world you wouldnt get 'little jimmy' playing 18 rated games when he's 12. But how many people here watched Arnie's films when they were under age back in the 80's ? Cobra came out on 8 bits yet we were all mostly under 18 but i'm sure many of us also watched the film as kids as we loved the game.

Think people are becoming 'like old gits' as they get older. These games didnt affect us when we played them

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