50hz is horrible.

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Prof Mango B Coconut
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Re: 50hz is horrible.

Post by Prof Mango B Coconut » Fri Aug 16, 2013 5:55 pm

The sad thing about crappy PAL ports is that good ones look better then their NTSC counterparts and run just as fast. Sure they have to drop a few frames to make PAL's 25 FPS appear as fast as NTSC's 30, but it's hardly ever noticeable and the increased resolution more than makes up for it.

I can't imagine that it's a technically difficult thing to do, so it makes me wonder whether programmers in Japan and the US were just unaware of the issue.
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Re: 50hz is horrible.

Post by Liamh1982 » Sat Aug 17, 2013 3:27 am

^ Maybe cos until fairly recently NTSC tellies did a far worse job handling PAL signals than vice versa.

And going back to the OP regarding DVD recorders, as someone who's currently on his third all of mine could record NTSC but not via RGB (most likely due to the USA not accepting it as a standard), especially considering that PAL RGB signals get horribly downgraded to the point where it looks worse than RF that may not be such a bad thing.
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Re: 50hz is horrible.

Post by Antiriad2097 » Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:29 pm

davyK wrote:Sonic 1 in PAL really is awful once you try it at 60Hz.
Nope. 60Hz Sonic is awful, the music plays too fast and everything ;)

I guess it's what you're used to.
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Re: 50hz is horrible.

Post by davyK » Sat Aug 17, 2013 3:22 pm

I know you aren't being 100% serious - you do have a point about the music - the PAL Sonic 1 is all I knew for years - but a change in music tempo is a small price to pay in order to actually experience the game moving at the originally intended speed and shown at the display ratio it was designed to be shown at.

How anyone could honestly prefer the laggy squashed PAL version is beyond me. It actually really annoys me when I think of the price UK gamers paid for a substandard game like that - screwed on exchange rate and quality of game. Actually - the game was fine - it was the console that was the issue - I play my PAL copy of Sonic on my modded model 1 - throw in RGB SCART output and the game is simply stunning - free from the shackles of PAL imposed mediocrity.

Go back further and it gets more annoying. Think MD and SNES games were expensive? Try playing £30 in 1982 for a 2600 game that ran with borders and at a slower speed. That's the guts of £90 in today's money (according to this http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bill ... -1900.html) Atari optimised some for speed (Yars Revenge and Berzerk for example ) but not all- and the wonderful Activision ? They didn't bother at all - even with Kaboom! which is a pure speed/twitch game - and believe me playing an NTSC or PAL60 version of that totally changes it.

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Re: 50hz is horrible.

Post by Antiriad2097 » Sat Aug 17, 2013 5:15 pm

Its not substandard, its fine. I'm serious when I say I'll play the 50Hz Sonic as the 60Hz version just feels all wrong after years of the PAL version.

For new games I'll generally go 60Hz (not least because most PC displays sync at 60Hz so offer smoother emulation), but for some of the old PAL classics I just can't get used to the change in speed, intended design or not.

If 50Hz was that bad, we wouldn't have enjoyed the games in the first place.

60Hz is just... different. Better or worse is largely subjective. But give me PAL 50Hz over a cruddy NTSC 60Hz display any day.
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Re: 50hz is horrible.

Post by learnedrobb » Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:46 am

Its all a matter of perspective.

Back in the late 80s/early 90s 50hz versions of the 8 and 16bit consoles were all that the vast majority of British and European gamers had. So, back then most of us just didn't know the difference that the switch to 60hz would make (barring the oft quoted 17% 'faster' concept, which was abstract unless you had seen it yourself).

It is only since the advent of 'PAL60' compatible TV sets that 60hz has become the norm for those of us on this side of the pond. With hindsight, you can see that most (but not all) 50hz PAL versions of games play differently.

Asking how people put up with it is pointless. We didn't have the option to choose 50hz or 60hz. We took what we were given, and that pretty much was that.
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Re: 50hz is horrible.

Post by Antiriad2097 » Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:22 pm

Also bear in mind that a huge number of UK gamers were on Speccys, C64s, STs and Amigas, where 50Hz was the norm. My total console gaming hours up until buying a Playstation would probably only be in double figures. I briefly owned a Mega Drive and SNES, but home computers were my main gaming fix (not least due to ease of access to games - copy cartridges were an unknown to me then other than the Action Replays).
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Re: 50hz is horrible.

Post by necronom » Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:55 pm

Antiriad2097 wrote:Also bear in mind that a huge number of UK gamers were on Speccys, C64s, STs and Amigas, where 50Hz was the norm.
Indeed. Most of the games I played from 1980 to 1999 were made in England, and were made for PAL, so there wasn't really such a thing as a 50 or 60Hz game, as they were always 50 and usually made for that. I don't know how our games could be played on NTSC, as they had about 100 lines of the screen missing, and therefore had a very narrow view of the game screen. I always thought how crap it would be to be in Japan or the US because of the crap TVs.

Console gaming seems be be a totally different thing, but I'm glad I went the computer route.
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Re: 50hz is horrible.

Post by Antiriad2097 » Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:03 pm

necronom wrote:Most of the games I played from 1980 to 1999 were made in England.
No Ant Attack, LLamatron, Lemmings or GTA for you then ;)

All those great European releases from overseas too...
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Re: 50hz is horrible.

Post by killbot » Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:12 pm

After the hoo-haa over Wii U VC I feel almost ashamed to admit it, but I genuinely can't tell the difference. Maybe if you put them side-by-side, but when I play VC games I couldn't pick out which were 50hz and which were 60hz.

But then maybe I'm just a philistine. I persisted with listening to music on cassettes for years because I couldn't hear the difference with CDs.
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Re: 50hz is horrible.

Post by Montytom » Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:45 pm

Ive only had pal stuff growing up and i am quite happy with it. 1 of my friends is a little tetchy and keeps saying look at the borders but it doesnt bother me. All modern stuff plays at the same speed now anyway so i would not know the difference but as said im happy with 50 hz
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Re: 50hz is horrible.

Post by nakamura » Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:13 pm

50 hz = Fine for all 8 and 16 bit computer games coded in Europe. Fine for a large number of EU coded 32bit games.

Rubbish for everything else. I've not played a single 128bit + game that looks better or runs better in 50hz.
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Re: 50hz is horrible.

Post by Mootown » Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:16 am

If it's meant to run at 60hz, it should be played at 60hz. It's that simple, you don't watch movies in slow motion.

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Re: 50hz is horrible.

Post by Provvidenza » Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:40 am

Mootown wrote:If it's meant to run at 60hz, it should be played at 60hz. It's that simple, you don't watch movies in slow motion.
While I agree with your sentiments, we actually watch PAL DVDs speeded up, due to the frame/field rate an average 90 minutes film is approx 5 mins shorter in PAL than it is in NTSC.
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Re: 50hz is horrible.

Post by Mootown » Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:42 am

Provvidenza wrote:
Mootown wrote:If it's meant to run at 60hz, it should be played at 60hz. It's that simple, you don't watch movies in slow motion.
While I agree with your sentiments, we actually watch PAL DVDs speeded up, due to the frame/field rate an average 90 minutes film is approx 5 mins shorter in PAL than it is in NTSC.
I'm all about 24fps blu-ray these days! Plus on a movie you can't see a difference. Playing Street Fighter II on a PAL Snes is like fighting in mud.

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