Sega Saturn Vs Sony Playstation 1

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Lost Dragon
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Re: Sega Saturn Vs Sony Playstation 1

Post by Lost Dragon » Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:28 am

Sephiroth81 wrote:
Lost Dragon wrote:Looking at Lifeforce Tenka as proof (pre-Quake II) PS could have handled Quake:

Polygons used for the enviroment:160,000

Polys used in entire game:32,000 per sector.

Polys per disk access: 10,000

Polys per character:100-350 Gouraud-shaded, textured and light-sourced.

Frame rates: 25 fps (Pal) 30 fps (NTSC)

Game used an advance lighting system (in 1 of the larger areas there are 404 lights in operation).

All specs from coders themselves.
Haha, nice stats, and that brings back memories. Lifeforce Tenka....what a crappy game that was.

But yes, the Playstation could easily have handled Quake 1, they just couldn't find a publisher. I'm surprised the finished ROM/ISO hasn't surfaced to put this argument to bed.
Yep, word was at least 7 have been tried but no-one could get game running at decent enough frame rate (probably just trying to port PC code, not a good idea), so yep, you'd have thought code from someones crack at it, must exist somewhere.

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outdated_gamer
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Re: Sega Saturn Vs Sony Playstation 1

Post by outdated_gamer » Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:55 am

Sephiroth81 wrote:
HEAVYface wrote:
crusto wrote:
got to hand it to sony, they used to know how to flog hardware - but - i'll take any 2d Saturn game (or 2d psone game for that matter) over any of the 3d games on the psone all day, everyday.

I felt the same back when the consoles were released to though, so maybe I was retro before retro was. or something.
I understand why you love 2D games, but how can you not like 3D PS1 games like Metal Gear Solid, Final Fantasy VII or Resident Evil? The games industry desperately needed a change, as all we were getting by the end of the SNES/MD generation were dreadful 2D platformers and movie tie-ins.
Yoshi's Island, DKC 3 and Sonic & Knuckles were hardly "dreadful" platformers. :wink:

I agree with the sentiment that gamers and the industry dismissed 2D games a bit too fast. It seems only in the recent few years developers and gamers have started to return to 2D games, with games like Rayman Origins, Muramassa, Braid and the like. After all, 2D games can look great in "HD" resolutions and with tons of colors and some types of games just seem to be better-suited for 2D (e.g. fighters, platformers, strategies, ect.).

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outdated_gamer
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Re: Sega Saturn Vs Sony Playstation 1

Post by outdated_gamer » Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:05 am

koopa42 wrote:What's a polygon? A dead parrot.
Triange. :wink:

It's interesting that other types of 3D graphics technologies (e.g. voxels, nurbs, quads, ect.) didn't manage to establish themselves but the polygons did. Maybe the reason for that is the ease of usage and support for "3D accelerators", which the other types lacked. But we could see a return of some of these technologies if "raw compute GPU" establishes itself in the future.

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Sephiroth81
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Re: Sega Saturn Vs Sony Playstation 1

Post by Sephiroth81 » Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:09 am

outdated_gamer wrote: Yoshi's Island, DKC 3 and Sonic & Knuckles were hardly "dreadful" platformers. :wink:
They were exceptions to the rule. The industry needed a change, and it may have not been initially easy, with the first batch of 3D games on PS1/SAT being quite shallow, like Ridge Racer, Virtua Fighter etc, but within just a couple of years, 3D was realising its potential. By 1997/8 were were enjoying fantastic 3D games like Tomb Raider, Crash Bandicoot, Metal Gear Solid, Gran Turismo, Ocarina of Time and Goldeneye. The industry was better for it, than if we had just "stuck" to 2 dimensions.

Yoshi's Island was genuinely decent and innovative, can't say i played Sonic and Knuckles....but DKC 3 - come on, it totally lacked innovation, and was almost indentical to its prequels, but having slightly worse level design the DKC 2. The Donkey Kong Country series, as solid and decent as they were, had become rehashes and reboots not so dissimilar to the FIFA series.

Lost Dragon
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Re: Sega Saturn Vs Sony Playstation 1

Post by Lost Dragon » Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:11 am

Media were rather harsh on 2D games like Rapid Reload, In The Hunt, Shinobi X, Raiden, various Retro compilations etc on PS/Saturn at times, claiming these were'nt what you paid £300 for a 32 bit CD based, RISC console to be playing, the likes of Edge and Playstation Plus in particular at times.

But this was doing the hardware an injustice i felt, i loved things like Capcom Generations, Bubble Bobble pack, Strider Collection etc.I had no PC so no MAME and had longed for more coin-op classics appearing on CD.Had expected them to appear on MCD, which seemed the oideal platform, it's true, but i'd happily take them on PS1.3D was'nt the be all and end all of gaming back then.Poured more hours into Blood Omen, Xcom, C+C/Red Alert etc than i did many a flashy 3D game on PS1.

But yes, industry was changing over to 3D, started in arcades with sega's Virtua Racing/Virtua Fighter, but you also had Namco's Winning Run coin-op etc, but i still always thought the 2 could happily co-exist.

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Re: Sega Saturn Vs Sony Playstation 1

Post by Antiriad2097 » Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:15 am

outdated_gamer wrote:
koopa42 wrote:What's a polygon? A dead parrot.
Triange. :wink:

It's interesting that other types of 3D graphics technologies (e.g. voxels, nurbs, quads, ect.) didn't manage to establish themselves but the polygons did. Maybe the reason for that is the ease of usage and support for "3D accelerators", which the other types lacked. But we could see a return of some of these technologies if "raw compute GPU" establishes itself in the future.
Polygons are just the simplest method requiring less computational power. For non realtime purposes such as creating assets, nurbs are still readily used to create final poly models.
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Re: Sega Saturn Vs Sony Playstation 1

Post by Liamh1982 » Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:59 am

outdated_gamer wrote:
koopa42 wrote:What's a polygon? A dead parrot.
Triange. :wink:
Not on the Saturn it's not... Double :wink:

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Re: Sega Saturn Vs Sony Playstation 1

Post by outdated_gamer » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:34 pm

Liamh1982 wrote:
outdated_gamer wrote:
koopa42 wrote:What's a polygon? A dead parrot.
Triange. :wink:
Not on the Saturn it's not... Double :wink:
Saturn (& 3DO) used quads. There's not really much difference between the two but apparently quads had some problems with rendering triangular objects. Polys were just the industry standard and that remains so to this day.

Nvidia's NV1 3D acclerator for PC also used quads. You can see some footage of it running games here. With this card you could run some Saturn games on the PC or so I heard.

EDIT: 3DO games could also be played on the PC via the "3DO Blaster" which was basically a 3DO board on a PC extension slot.

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Re: Sega Saturn Vs Sony Playstation 1

Post by davyK » Fri Jan 17, 2014 3:46 pm

Sephiroth81 wrote:
Yoshi's Island was genuinely decent and innovative
That is, to say the least, an understatement.
:)

DKC was nice but felt a bit formulaic to me...RARE were always better at the technical aspect of game dev than the design itself.

YI is still a beautiful looking game and plays sublimely too. Anyone looking for a challenge should try to 100pt all the levels. Going for that opens the game up and the excellent level design really becomes apparent - those who just raced to the finish missed out on an awful lot.

Platformers had been done to death by too many dev houses pushing out 3rd rate products - even with that the SNES's top dozen platformers are still pretty sweet today. It was time to move on though.....and as the PS1 and Saturn clearly weren't really up to the job of proper 3D platforming (as the N64 showed) it forced a rethink and 3D friendly genres such as driving and first person games came to the fore. It is great to see the genre coming back though as long as the quality is there - as a matter of fact DKC Returns on Wii is a lovely game.

The FPS has replaced the platformer as the hackneyed genre - I've seen more than enough of those.

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Re: Sega Saturn Vs Sony Playstation 1

Post by HEAVYface » Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:14 pm

Sephiroth81 wrote:
HEAVYface wrote:
crusto wrote:
got to hand it to sony, they used to know how to flog hardware - but - i'll take any 2d Saturn game (or 2d psone game for that matter) over any of the 3d games on the psone all day, everyday.

I felt the same back when the consoles were released to though, so maybe I was retro before retro was. or something.
I understand why you love 2D games, but how can you not like 3D PS1 games like Metal Gear Solid, Final Fantasy VII or Resident Evil? The games industry desperately needed a change, as all we were getting by the end of the SNES/MD generation were dreadful 2D platformers and movie tie-ins.
I hated and still hate resident evil with a passion. the original in particular is one of the most successful badly designed games of all time, glossed over because people like zombie bobbins. a game where having sh!t, maddeningly obtuse controls contributes 90% of the gameplay is not a well designed game IMO. it's a broken infuriating experience with atmosphere papering over mile wide cracks in the gameplay.

the last turn based jrpg I played was phantasy star 3, it wasn't sufficiently interesting for me to stick with the genre. I had a friend who completed FFVII a few times, I watched him play it a bit and thought it looked like a right chore, ditto metal gear solid (although out of the three games mentioned this is the nicest looking).

3d games I admire on the psone would work just as well or better (and look nicer) in 2d - things like parapper the rapper, g darius, raystorm, rtype delta.

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Re: Sega Saturn Vs Sony Playstation 1

Post by koopa42 » Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:20 pm

HEAVYface wrote:I hated and still hate resident evil with a passion. the original in particular is one of the most successful badly designed games of all time, glossed over because people like zombie bobbins. a game where having sh!t, maddeningly obtuse controls contributes 90% of the gameplay is not a well designed game IMO. it's a broken infuriating experience with atmosphere papering over mile wide cracks in the gameplay
No. All kinds of no. In fact, to the theme of Big Ben? No no no no ...... no no no no.

I will agree there are slight problems with the game (controls ..... ish and deffo camera angles) but they don't even come close to degrading one of the greatest games of all time ..... at the time that it.

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Re: Sega Saturn Vs Sony Playstation 1

Post by HEAVYface » Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:47 pm

koopa42 wrote:
HEAVYface wrote:I hated and still hate resident evil with a passion. the original in particular is one of the most successful badly designed games of all time, glossed over because people like zombie bobbins. a game where having sh!t, maddeningly obtuse controls contributes 90% of the gameplay is not a well designed game IMO. it's a broken infuriating experience with atmosphere papering over mile wide cracks in the gameplay
No. All kinds of no. In fact, to the theme of Big Ben? No no no no ...... no no no no.

I will agree there are slight problems with the game (controls ..... ish and deffo camera angles) but they don't even come close to degrading one of the greatest games of all time ..... at the time that it.
no its broken, but that's never been a barrier to success.

Fundamentally it builds tension because you can't control the character in an intuitive way. the camera oh man the camera......means you walk into rooms with things off screen you can't aim at that then attack you..... you can't even god damn aim in an easy way, with a combination of perspective used and control woes. there are ways to get the player to feel tension in a game other than knobbling the controls. hello 3d monster maze! hell I feel more tense waiting for a straight 4 block in tetris than anything that appears in resident evil. RE controls actively pull me out of the game.

The genius of the game is they made everybody believe that the infuriating control scheme was adding suspense. I understand why people like it, its very juvenile in a lot of ways (not a bad thing), and you have to be quite hardcore to stick with the gameplay....but the zombie theme is not a big enough hook to put up with all the obvious problems the game has.
Last edited by HEAVYface on Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sega Saturn Vs Sony Playstation 1

Post by The Laird » Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:50 pm

Completely agree with you on this one.

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koopa42
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Re: Sega Saturn Vs Sony Playstation 1

Post by koopa42 » Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:55 pm

HEAVYface wrote: RE controls actively pull me out of the game.
Fair enough. Personally, I never felt any problem with them at all (at the time) ..... only in hindsight, and that's being honest, I class the weekend of playing RE on my playstation as one of the best gaming events in my life, however as I already said ... I can never go back to it :(

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Re: Sega Saturn Vs Sony Playstation 1

Post by RodimusPrime » Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:56 pm

Resident evil is a great game and number 2 is a true classic. I like the controls.

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